Sinhala / Sri Lankan Swords?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Prasanna Weerakkody

The old post seem to be dragging on once again but with the same old (what I thought was now a long dead) argument. I think I would not even try to convince Mr. Balooshi as he is fixed on his idea that the Kasthana pommel is Makara despite all the evidence presented and Mr. Balooshi seems totally unable to even examine and see objectively the points presented. Balooshi It would be good if you would kindly go through the thread again. most of these points you still throw around have been answered before.

Being from Sri Lanka- the Kasthana is part of my living heritage. I understand it standing within the culture which originated it and still survive. I see the Sinhala Makara and Lion and other mythical beasts in that context - there is no mistake the pommel is of a Lion head. It is also backed by the surviving sword lore and is even mentioned in ancient craft manuals like the “Vyjayantha thanthra” The Kasthana is known as the Lion hilted sword. There is not even a shard of doubt about the identity of the beast on the pommel.

As I said earlier there are Makara and Serapendiya figures depicted on other parts of the Kasthana hilt but the pommel is always a Lion head.

If you need to drag along this further may be you should look at depictions of Makara and Lion in Sinhala motifs instead of regional as there are some differences. Regional references don’t always tally up with Sinhala traditional art and motifs. bringing in a mixed hodge-podge of all sorts of creatures that don’t have a place in a Sinhala context is only adding to the confusion.

As I mentioned before there are two main classes of Kasthana swords- the earlier dated Kasthana with good blades and Silver, metal, Horn or wooden hilts were true fighting weapons. I had listed historic texts that document use of Kasthana swords in battle dating back to mid 16th Century. (Balooshi-please go back and check that). The Golden hilts with excessive jewels with the “dog-faced” Lion hilts and inferior blades were mostly just presentation swords used by Sinhala Mudelliers and Arachchis under Dutch and British administrations.

The religious Iconography used is as auspicious symbols to bring luck and protection to the warrior- Theravada Buddhism does not use weapons as religious Icons.

No new material seem to be forthcoming and only old ideas are being re-shuffled. It is funny that everyone else is able to identify Lions from Makara heads with the exception of Mr. Balooshi.

Salaams Prasanna Weerakkody,

Sir, I have been through the thread... I wrote most of it. You may think its funny...or that no new material is being offered. You could consider reflecting that the thread is dragging on... or that everyone else thinks the subject hilt depicts a lion...(strange that ... as there is only one other person in that debate)...If you aren't interested or perhaps you are bored what can I do about that? I certainly will not give up. I like the subject! Its interesting. I learn a lot as we proceed.

All that you have done is to pontificate "that because you say its a lion it must be a lion". It's not. Its a Makara. I have shown that in several recent posts ..see above. I have even listed reasons for ease of understanding and supported my reasoning with pictures.

New detail has emerged .. Anecdotal evidence from 1807 when the weapon was used as a military rank indicator.. and more logical evidence; historic, cultural, and traditional as well as religious. That is what this Forum is about.

If you do not wish to take part then it is entirely up to you...This is a Forum... you know what happens on Forums... ?

Being from Sri Lanka does not give you ownership of the Kastane...moreover it gives you the opportunity to debate this very little known sword on the hot anvil of this Forum and not Sir, to attempt to slur the efforts of others.

It is extremely bad form to suggest that I may have not the respect because I am not Sri Lankan and to suggest that by speaking to me in the 3rd person that everyone else is able to identify the lion except me is entirely without merit and very insulting.

You are mistaken about the Makara Hilt. Its not a Lion. I just proved it. See my last few posts.

Your point about ancient or older blades is noted ... but you cant just talk about them... It has to be looked at, examined and debated. It wouldn't surprise me if they were better blades.. but on this show... You have to practically dig the old body up with the original sword in his hand and a diagram in triplicate of the design signed by the maker! before it can be accepted beyond doubt.

No one else addresses me as Balooshi here... Kindly use my first name; Ibrahiim.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Ibrahiim,

Please do not be so bold and self assured that you have "proved" it is a Makara. Nothing has been proved unless you have a time machine...one that I would like to hire if you do.

I am still awaiting for numerous direct questions to be answered, not side stepped and danced around.

Please be so kind as to provide direct answers when time permits.


Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Ibrahiim,

You may want to digest this victorain period etching further.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Dear Ibrahiim,

You may want to digest this victorain period etching further.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons Thank you for your detail showing the Victorian Lion. The picture of the half bird item is hugely interesting and for that I am grateful also. It appears to be a Serapendiya. (see picture below)

Over the last few weeks I have been defending the Makara .. blindly perhaps... but firmly in my opinion.(not always the best way of doing business ) At the same time (and lacking both support and disagreements both of which are inspirational especially if criticism is constructive) I have been looking sideways with great interest at the other monsters, Deities and grotesques involved in the Kastane Hilt. Many are virtually identical but as I have said not all have vital fish or Peacock tail arrangement... but blow me down some do!!


It seems possible that some highly controvertial alterations may have ensued in the way the Sri Lankan National Sword may have been been historically re written. Thus this is a highly emotive subject in some quarters. Though the Victorian view of what Europeans thought a Lion looked like I have to say that their construction may have been slightly off regarding accuracy. That to one side .. it will be apparent from my findings in looking at the broader picture that some Deities will begin to fuse .. and who knows I could end up debating the Lion head after all...

The confusion is hardly surprising..Virtually every source I have looked at including museums and auction houses have a bland overall way of encompassing the description of the Kastane hilt. Some explain it in dual form either a Makara or a Lion, others call it a grotesque whilst the dragon word often intervenes. Several mix up the minor deities (if that is what they are) whilst others confuse the face on the handguard as a maiden...etc etc ..

Through the ages, considering the occupation of three invading forces including Portuguese, Dutch, and British (and interference by others) all now fairly well inducted into library via this thread by the way ... and not to mention the now full information package that this thread contains..The Kastane has switched from potential weapon,to court sword, to presentation sword, to badge of office, to badge of rank, to National Sword and carries with it Buddhist forms at the quillons probably from the Vagra structure discussed here.

During its history there is some evidence that restrictions on who could wear it. As early as 1807 Royal Workshops were involved in its production though exactly how this developed or from where is not yet known. It would seem that a junior officer would have a less lavish Kastane and somewhere there is possibly a rank structure/Kastane graph ...or note detailing who could wear what..

Somewhere in the martial arts system in Sri Lanka there may exist confirmation that this weapon was one of the many weapons used before or at the beginning of Portuguese involvement.

Current thinking suggests Royal Workshop collusion with the Portuguese in creating the lavish hilt if not the entire item. If the kingdom which inspired the design was in fact the Karvara dynasty then the hilt is more likely not to be Lion and far more probable to be Makara. If Sinhalese then the design would more likely to be intended as Lion.

In studying the different motiffs I have to add "serapendiya" (a mythical figure of an animal whose head is like that of a lion joined to the body of a bird) head quillon finials. (Frankly I had never even heard of it until I began sweeping about considering the Lion situation) See the pictures below.

In fact, it may well be that #23 The quilons and guards carry Makara and Serapendiya heads interchangeably. Some swords also carry representation of deities on sword hilts in addition to the Animal forms... is correct.

Picture shows Serapendiya. Perhaps this Deity holds the key?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Picture shows Serapendiya. Perhaps this Deity holds the key?

Dear Ibrahiim,

I stand corrected on this creature, the one with the Lion head.

Michael Backman has provided information about these swords and the Serapendiya when displayed in his gallery. The bibliography he provides will I am sure offer great insight in to art and armour from these regions as his reading/library list is impeccable.

Gavin

[Prasanna Weerakkody]

Dear Ibrahiim

Sorry if you are offended by my using your name as Balooshi. I was not aware that it was in any way offensive to you. my regrets on this one. shall call you Ibrahiim from now on. My sincere apologies...

For whoever is interested I provided a rather basic outline of the main figures on a kasthana hilt based on the traditional Sinhala presentation of beast forms on my post dated 6th Oct 2012 Including Lion Makara and Serapendiya.

regards

Prasanna

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

Dear Ibrahiim,

I stand corrected on this creature, the one with the Lion head.

Michael Backman has provided information about these swords and the Serapendiya when displayed in his gallery. The bibliography he provides will I am sure offer great insight in to art and armour from these regions as his reading/library list is impeccable.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons` Yes he knows his stuff .. thanks for the reply. On the picture you posted this was very much on cue... I was just investigating the Serapendiya...then your picture appeared... though it had been alluded to way back...I didn't have a clue about it..

Frankly I haven't seen two absolutely exact copies of these sword hilts .. they all have a certain degree of artistic impression and being hand carved mythical themes that is hardly surprising.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Sir, I have been through the thread… I wrote most of it.

Yes Ibrahiim, we know…
Fortunately academic debates are not necessarily won based upon who writes the most about the subject during the debate just as in person arguments are not won by the person who argues the loudest.
Frankly i see that you have proved nothing in this debate. And very clearly more than one person disagrees with your conclusion while i do not see anyone lining up who agrees with your hypothesis. I will add myself to the growing group of people who are at least voicing their opposition to your theory. I suspect that many are remaining silent because they don't see the point of argument. The pommel figure is undoubtably a lion to my eyes. It has lion features that are not known to have ever been a part of the Makara motif such as the mane and is missing many of the features such as the snout/trunk which are classic indicators of the Makara.
I am afraid that if you cannot see the pommel is clearly a lion's head, especially with this last picture posted by Gavin, that further debate with you on the subject is futile. But do carry on if it makes you feel any better.

[Gavin Nugent]

Dear Ibrahiim,

Please also find better sources for the image you supplied of Makara. This is a Leogryph, not a Makara. The head of a Lion, the body of a Griffin.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

Yes Ibrahiim, we know…
Fortunately academic debates are not necessarily won based upon who writes the most about the subject during the debate just as in person arguments are not won by the person who argues the loudest.
Frankly i see that you have proved nothing in this debate. And very clearly more than one person disagrees with your conclusion while i do not see anyone lining up who agrees with your hypothesis. I will add myself to the growing group of people who are at least voicing their opposition to your theory. I suspect that many are remaining silent because they don't see the point of argument. The pommel figure is undoubtably a lion to my eyes. It has lion features that are not known to have ever been a part of the Makara motif such as the mane and is missing many of the features such as the snout/trunk which are classic indicators of the Makara.
I am afraid that if you cannot see the pommel is clearly a lion's head, especially with this last picture posted by Gavin, that further debate with you on the subject is futile. But do carry on if it makes you feel any better.

Salaams David. Good points well brought out! I agree.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.