SCAMS AND FAKES

Matchlock · 7th January 2014, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I noticed that the double barrel pistol (.no. A1135 in the Wallace Collection) as described by Michael, shows that the lock isn't in its original place either.
There is a space between the wood en the lock and the place where the pancover slides does not line up with the wood (running horizontally to the barrel) either.
Is this because of aging, the wood shrinking or is there something else going on?

Hi Marcus,

Very well observed!

I'm afraid I cannot solve that problem without handling and dismantling the piece.
Again, the single picture on the USB stick (screenshot attached) showing the lock recess, with the locks turned inside out, is not good enough and in too low resolution to discern that question.
Btw, that item was totally neglected in the book ...

I guess we also should understand the crucial position of the Wallace curators though, who must feel torn between two feelings and desires ...

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 7th January 2014, 05:45 PM

Thank you Michael,
I uncovered my own Walllace (and gromit) USB stick and looked the pistol up.
The buttstock seems weird indeed, there where the bone begins. The wood surrounding the locks is bigger (wider) and all the sudden, when the bone "ring" starts, the wood has a very weird/steep rounding to it?

the green lines show how the stock, in my opnion, should have progressed (with of course some degree of curvatude). The red circle shows the area i am concerned about. The bone plaque of the trigger is also not smoothly lining up with the "ring" of bone.
And to be honest, i find the whole bone "ring" somewhat large? It doesn't look proportioned to all the other subtle ornaments and engravings. But i lake the knowledge to make a well founded argument (currently reading baxters superimposed loads firearms book though, so some knowledge should be sinking in)

Matchlock · 7th January 2014, 06:04 PM

Hi Marcus,

That's exactly the point that I meant when I said in post #15 that the long engraved bone sleeve of the grip is not original either; also the style of engraving on the grip differs drastically from the early style on the rest of the - relatively few, which is absolutely correct! - bone inlays.
The style of engraving on the rest of the pistol is consistent withs its early date of mid-16th c. manufacture, 1554, but the bone sleeve on the grip and the inlay to its right all of a sudden change to the Nuremberg foliage style of ca. 1600!!! The alarm is ringing!

Best,
m

Matchlock · 8th January 2014, 04:09 PM

Here is a long Nuremberg-style Alsatian double wheellock wender pistol of about 1610; the lemon-shaped butt of such a type of pistol was used to crudely transform the Wallace pistol dated 1554 (A1135).

You can also identify the wrong-style engraved bone inlays on that pistol; attached please find two close-ups of the correct ca. 1610 Nurembeg foliage engravings which of course are inapt for 1554: the short (!) round sleeve in front of the pommel and the side plaques in front of the double muzzle.

The images are from James D. Julia's auction held 14-16 October 2013, lot 2486.

m

VANDOO · 9th January 2014, 04:58 AM

THIS IS CERTIANLY A FIELD I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SO CAN NOT COMMENT ON WHAT GOES WHERE OR THE AGE, DESIGNS ,ECT. SO PERHAPS A BIT OF CONJECTURE.

WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED IN MANY CASES IS THERE WERE MANY BROKEN,PLAIN OR INCOMPLETE WEAPONS AVAILABLE. THESE PEOPLE MAY HAVE BOUGHT THEM UP AND DID THEIR SO CALLED RESTORATION TO MAKE THEM COMPLETE. PERHAPS THEIR KNOWLEGE WAS LIMITED SO THEY LOOKED AT COMPLETE EXAMPLES THAT WERE SIMULAR AND TRIED TO MAKE THEIR RESTORATIONS LOOK LIKE THEM. THEY NO DOUBT SELECTED THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND HIGH GRADE ITEMS FOR THEIR PATTERNS. THEIR OBJECT WAS TO MAKE THEIR CREATIONS EASY TO SELL AND AS PROFITABLE AS POSSIBLE. INCOMPLETE OR BROKEN ITEMS DID NOT SELL FOR MUCH COMPLETE ONES DID.
THEY NO DOUBT BROUGHT TO THE MARKET MANY ITEMS THAT APPEARED TO BE COMPLETE AND RARE EXAMPLES FROM THE HIGH CLASSES OR ROYALTY. THE COMPLETE ONES WERE RARE OR STILL IN THE HANDS OF THE RICH SO MUSEUMS BOUGHT THESE FANCY LOOKING ITEMS FOR DISPLAY WHEN THEY BECAME AVAILABLE.
THESE COMPOSITE ITEMS HAVE ALL BEEN MESSED WITH IF PARTS FROM OTHER WEAPONS HAVE BEEN USED OR NEW ONES MADE TO REPLACE AND RESTORE. THIS GOES FOR DECORATIVE ENGRAVINGS OR BONE, SHELL OR WOOD INLAYS THAT ARE ADDED. THEIR HISTORY AND VARIETY MAKES AN INTERESTING STUDY IN ITSELF. SO WHEN DOES RESTORATION BECOME FRAUD, FAKE OR SCAM? ONE WOULD HAVE TO KNOW THE INTENT OF THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED. THEY EITHER LACKED THE KNOWLEGE TO GET IT RIGHT OR CAME TO THE WRONG CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS CLOSE ENOUGH.
NO DOUBT THESE GUNS APPEAR TO THOSE WITH THE KNOWLEGE LIKE A 1950'S CORVETTE WITH A CADALLAC FRONT BUMPER AND BULLET TAIL LIGHTS WOULD TO ME. JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH

Matchlock · 9th May 2014, 08:23 PM

For a very topical instance, please see my thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post170147

m

Matchlock · 29th August 2014, 03:32 PM

See this absolutely extreme case - no chance whatsoever!!!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=scams+fakes

This is very easy to tell:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=faked+wall

Best,
Michael

8th January 2014, 04:09 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Here is a long Nuremberg-style Alsatian double wheellock wender pistol of about 1610; the lemon-shaped butt of such a type of pistol was used to crudely transform the Wallace pistol dated 1554 (A1135). You can also identify the wrong-style engraved bone inlays on that pistol; attached please find two close-ups of the correct ca. 1610 Nurembeg foliage engravings which of course are inapt for 1554: the short (!) round sleeve in front of the pommel and the side plaques in front of the double muzzle. The images are from James D. Julia's auction held 14-16 October 2013, lot 2486. m Attached Images

7th January 2014, 05:45 PM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Thank you Michael, I uncovered my own Walllace (and gromit) USB stick and looked the pistol up. The buttstock seems weird indeed, there where the bone begins. The wood surrounding the locks is bigger (wider) and all the sudden, when the bone "ring" starts, the wood has a very weird/steep rounding to it? the green lines show how the stock, in my opnion, should have progressed (with of course some degree of curvatude). The red circle shows the area i am concerned about. The bone plaque of the trigger is also not smoothly lining up with the "ring" of bone. And to be honest, i find the whole bone "ring" somewhat large? It doesn't look proportioned to all the other subtle ornaments and engravings. But i lake the knowledge to make a well founded argument (currently reading baxters superimposed loads firearms book though, so some knowledge should be sinking in)

7th January 2014, 06:04 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Marcus, That's exactly the point that I meant when I said in post #15 that the long engraved bone sleeve of the grip is not original either; also the style of engraving on the grip differs drastically from the early style on the rest of the - relatively few, which is absolutely correct! - bone inlays. The style of engraving on the rest of the pistol is consistent withs its early date of mid-16th c. manufacture, 1554, but the bone sleeve on the grip and the inlay to its right all of a sudden change to the Nuremberg foliage style of ca. 1600!!! The alarm is ringing! Best, m

9th January 2014, 04:58 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS CERTIANLY A FIELD I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT SO CAN NOT COMMENT ON WHAT GOES WHERE OR THE AGE, DESIGNS ,ECT. SO PERHAPS A BIT OF CONJECTURE. WHAT MAY HAVE HAPPENED IN MANY CASES IS THERE WERE MANY BROKEN,PLAIN OR INCOMPLETE WEAPONS AVAILABLE. THESE PEOPLE MAY HAVE BOUGHT THEM UP AND DID THEIR SO CALLED RESTORATION TO MAKE THEM COMPLETE. PERHAPS THEIR KNOWLEGE WAS LIMITED SO THEY LOOKED AT COMPLETE EXAMPLES THAT WERE SIMULAR AND TRIED TO MAKE THEIR RESTORATIONS LOOK LIKE THEM. THEY NO DOUBT SELECTED THE MOST EXPENSIVE AND HIGH GRADE ITEMS FOR THEIR PATTERNS. THEIR OBJECT WAS TO MAKE THEIR CREATIONS EASY TO SELL AND AS PROFITABLE AS POSSIBLE. INCOMPLETE OR BROKEN ITEMS DID NOT SELL FOR MUCH COMPLETE ONES DID. THEY NO DOUBT BROUGHT TO THE MARKET MANY ITEMS THAT APPEARED TO BE COMPLETE AND RARE EXAMPLES FROM THE HIGH CLASSES OR ROYALTY. THE COMPLETE ONES WERE RARE OR STILL IN THE HANDS OF THE RICH SO MUSEUMS BOUGHT THESE FANCY LOOKING ITEMS FOR DISPLAY WHEN THEY BECAME AVAILABLE. THESE COMPOSITE ITEMS HAVE ALL BEEN MESSED WITH IF PARTS FROM OTHER WEAPONS HAVE BEEN USED OR NEW ONES MADE TO REPLACE AND RESTORE. THIS GOES FOR DECORATIVE ENGRAVINGS OR BONE, SHELL OR WOOD INLAYS THAT ARE ADDED. THEIR HISTORY AND VARIETY MAKES AN INTERESTING STUDY IN ITSELF. SO WHEN DOES RESTORATION BECOME FRAUD, FAKE OR SCAM? ONE WOULD HAVE TO KNOW THE INTENT OF THE INDIVIDUALS INVOLVED. THEY EITHER LACKED THE KNOWLEGE TO GET IT RIGHT OR CAME TO THE WRONG CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS CLOSE ENOUGH. NO DOUBT THESE GUNS APPEAR TO THOSE WITH THE KNOWLEGE LIKE A 1950'S CORVETTE WITH A CADALLAC FRONT BUMPER AND BULLET TAIL LIGHTS WOULD TO ME. JUST MY TWO CENTS WORTH

9th May 2014, 08:23 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For a very topical instance, please see my thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...d=1#post170147 m

29th August 2014, 03:32 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	See this absolutely extreme case - no chance whatsoever!!! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ht=scams+fakes This is very easy to tell: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=faked+wall Best, Michael