Picture of a 17th Lancer in 1829 wearing a 1796 LCS

[sirupate]

My pleasure Fernando.

Anyone have any thought on the possibility of the 17th still retaining the 1796 LCS during the Crimea War?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by sirupate

My pleasure Fernando.

Anyone have any thought on the possibility of the 17th still retaining the 1796 LCS during the Crimea War?

An absolutely fascinating topic in British military history, and most intriguing question. Actually as a very young collector my fascination with the Charge of the Light Brigade became an obsession (probably from the much dramatized Errol Flynn Hollywood version) and compelled me to collect British cavalry swords. Like many such widely popularized historic events which became heavily filtered through literature and later movies, ongoing research has always questioned many often distorted and sometimes fanciful notions.

The 17th Lancers, probably the most well known of the famed 'Light Brigade' due to their distinct uniforms and lances in the front line of the charge, had indeed been in India from 1817 until 1823. While in India they had been reassigned as 'lancers' , I believe one of the first British units so designated, influenced by Napoleons Polish lancers (hence the distinct 'chapka' headgear).

The M1796 light cavalry sabre was being supplanted by the new model 1821 cavalry sabre with three bar guard rather than the stirrup hilt of the M1796, and by 1823 there had been some issuance of the new swords. However with certain production issues if I recall correctly, the renewed production in scale did not begin until 1829, and there has often been classification disparity in whether these were M1821 or M1829.

In any case, while the 17th were in India, they of course would have been armed with the M1796, and that sabre indeed remained in service in India long after the introduction of the M1821/29 and was much favored by native regiments. In fact, these sabres remained so popular in India they were still being produced privately for the native regiments as late as end of the 19th century.

The fabulous prints by R. Caton Woodville are of course often key icons for students of militaria, however like other artistic renderings of military units and historic events, a degree of artistic license existed. While it is known that during the issue of the new M1821/29 sabres a long transition period ensued, we know that the 17th were back in England by 1823, and were being outfitted with unique new uniforms to accompany their new designation as lancers.
It seems highly doubtful that a unit with this much attention to fashion in addition to key designation would not receive the new sabre forms straightaway, but perhaps a lag until 1829 could have plausibly occurred.

It is now known that at the Charge of the Light Brigade, the primary sword of issue to the units was the M1821/29 light cavalry sabre. However new evidence has revealed that a considerable number of the troopers of all units carried the newly issued M1853 pattern, a much heavier sabre. There has been no evidence of the older M1796 patterns in the Charge .

I would submit however that in later years, reunions and events honoring survivors were celebrated in England through the latter part of the century. Apparently a number of presentation sabres of the M1796 pattern were inscribed and presented to some of these survivors. It seems there have only been a couple I know of which have come up in auctions. I know they caused quite a stir when they appeared and revived that very question.

I would conclude that the M1796 was not present at the Charge .

[terry1956]

As most of us know.the forming of lancer regiments in the british army was a direct result of meetings with french and polish lancers during the napoleonic wars.not only did we copy the uniforms but also the lance itself.that famous RHA officer Mercer when walking around the battlefield of waterloo after the battle, came across a wounded lancer of the red lancers of the old guard.mercer took the lancers lance as a souvenir of the battle and took it back to the UK.it was this lance that was used for the pattern for lancers for the british cavalry. As a note, there was a 1821 pattern sabre with an engraved blade stating that it was ueed during the LB action.michael

[Queequeg]

The gentleman in the first picture bears some resemblance to one Sir Harry Paget Flashman VC KCB KCIE.

[Jim McDougall]

For anyone interested in regulation military swords, in particular those of the British cavalry, one of the most fascinating and accurate books to date on these and historic events and persons using them has just been published by Richard Dellar:
"The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912,

This volume, rather than being the usual rather dry typology and classification compendiums reads more like a fascinating historical story using actual weapons with key provenance to illustrate them.

On p.252, the instances I referred to concerning the M1796 light cavalry swords with presentation plaques on the scabbards are detailed thoroughly and there were several as noted. The first one surfaced in 1976 at a Wallis & Wallis auction (referred to as the 'Tucker' sword for the 17th Lancers private who was indeed in the Charge). Later another of the 17th Lancers and one to the 4th Hussars appeared . It is believed that these were possibly presented by the Balaclava Commemoration Society which first convened October 25,1875. It is noted that while the troopers were not armed with the 1796 sabres at the Charge, access to old stores of these were likely available at associated armouries and would have served well as such presentation swords. The engraved escutcheons on the scabbards only reference Balaklava and Oct 25 1854. On the Tucker sword the owners name is inscribed on it. It is puzzling on the 4th Hussar sword that it is marked 4H, and the hussar title was not in use until 1861, clearly indicating these marking were applied later than the charge.

Since Woodville did not begin to exhibit his artwork until 1879, with the Light Brigade and 17th Lancers works apparently sometime later, probably early 1880s, it is tempting to presume that perhaps these presentation swords might have influenced his illustrations as these commemorative events were in place.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All; Just reading the poem conjours up some of the feelings and atmosphere of that great charge.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The Charge of the Light Brigade

Half a league, half a league,
  Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death,
  Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!
Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldiers knew
  Some one had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
  Rode the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon in front of them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
Boldly they rode and well,
Into the jaws of Death,
Into the mouth of Hell
  Rode the six hundred.

Flash'd all their sabres bare,
Flash'd as they turned in air
Sabring the gunners there,
Charging an army while
  All the world wonder'd:
Plunged in the battery-smoke
Right thro' the line they broke;
Cossack and Russian
Reel'd from the sabre-stroke
Shatter'd and sunder'd.
Then they rode back, but not
Not the six hundred.

Cannon to right of them,
Cannon to left of them,
Cannon behind them
  Volley'd and thunder'd;
Storm'd at with shot and shell,
While horse and hero fell,
They that had fought so well
Came thro' the jaws of Death,
Back from the mouth of Hell,
All that was left of them,
  Left of six hundred.

When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
  All the world wonder'd.
Honour the charge they made!
Honour the Light Brigade,
  Noble six hundred!

[sirupate]

Thank you everyone for your input, especially Jim McDougall, the book by Richard Dellar: "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912, sounds very interesting, and worth a shout.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... In fact, these sabres remained so popular in India they were still being produced privately for the native regiments as late as end of the 19th century...

As in other places, like for Portuguese Cavalry until 1851 .

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I picked up this image a while ago and thought it may be of interest on this thread. A contemporary aquatinted print by Colnaghi & Co., 23 Cockspur Street, London., printed 1st Dec 1813 entitled 'A PRIVATE of the 2D. or ROYAL NORTH BRITISH DRAGOONS (GREYS). It clearly shows the British Heavy Cavalry Troopers sword of the period i.e. the 1796 H.C. Troopers sword. This regiment, as you know, is more commonly known as the 'Scots Greys' and best known for their famous charge and capture of a French Eagle at Waterloo by Sgt., later Ensign Ewart.
Regards,
Norman.

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
Sergeant Ewart capturing the Eagle. Whether by accident or design Ewart's sword appears to have a re-profiled point which was done to some 1796 H.C. Troopers swords in order to try and make it a more effective thrusting weapon whilst the the sword directly behind appears to still have the original 'hatchet' point as issued.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. 'Sirupate', I can vouch first hand for Richard Dellar's book, a great and informative read.

[sirupate]

Lovely pics Norman
Here is Sgt. Ewart's Sword and the Eagle he captured;

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much for the other images guys! and Sirupate for this thread!
The study of the British cavalry has always been a fascinating favorite for me as it was this subject which began my wonderful adventures in the collection and study of arms well over 40 years ago.

Ibrahiim thank you so much for posting Tennyson's magnificent poem in full! Those words have been resoundingly implanted in the literature and language of western culture since, and particularly the words, 'theirs not to reason why, theirs but to do and die' often occur in everyday expressions and analogy.

Norman, great and most astute observation in the illustration of Sgt. Ewart and that the points of the M1796 disc hilts were varied. I recall that accounts of the Scots Greys leaving England for Belgium state that they were ordered to grind the backs of their sword blades toward the later favored 'spear point. For some time there had been considerable debate over cut vs. thrust in the use of swords, and at this point it was decided, rather in ersatz fashion, that going into combat the spear point would be more effective with these heavy swords than the original hatchet point .

It is indeed curious why the artist would place both forms of point in the illustration and whether a consciously placed rendering or coincidental variation.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...
In any case, while the 17th were in India, they of course would have been armed with the M1796, and that sabre indeed remained in service in India long after the introduction of the M1821/29 and was much favored by native regiments. In fact, these sabres remained so popular in India they were still being produced privately for the native regiments as late as end of the 19th century...

...and beyond. I gather the Indian Army was offered the 1908 style straight thrusting 'sabre' and turned it down, only accepting essentially a 1796 with a beefed up ricasso area and a three bar guard (Mine fits a 1796lc scabbard up to about 3 in. from actual seating and it's hard to tell the difference). They were sadly forced to take the fairly useless 1908s just before ww1. I wonder if any of the '96s made it to Europe like ancestral Gurkha khukuris. The 'Mountain sabre' was popular in the Mountains of northern India including the Khyber pass and Afghanistan where they actually saw service. Mine feels a lot better balanced and handy than a 1796LC.

The Italian Mountain divisions in WW1 also had a very 1796-ish sword. They, and the Austrians opposing did amazing things in impossible places in the Alps.

The 1796 lives on.

[Hotspur]

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-...w-documentary/

[Bryce]

They were sadly forced to take the fairly useless 1908s

G'day Wayne,

I think that is a bit harsh. The argument about cut or thrust has been going on for centuries. I think if you want to skewer someone from horseback you won't find a better sword than the 1908.

Cheers,
Bryce

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by Bryce

G'day Wayne,

I think that is a bit harsh. The argument about cut or thrust has been going on for centuries. I think if you want to skewer someone from horseback you won't find a better sword than the 1908.

Cheers,
Bryce

true, but skewering them in a charge like a short lance makes it rather difficult to keep your sword w/o breaking your wrist. Thrusts are more likely to kill, and slices to incapacitate with horrible wounds. You are also less likely to drop the sword as you slide by. Also better for cutting down fleeing troops.

From a practical logistical assessment, It's preferable to give them a horrible wound and tie up scarce resources like doctors, nurses, medicines, food, etc. Kill and all it takes is a short time pushing them in a hole. I tend to agree with the Indians ( and the poles).

I was trained as an Epee fencer to purely thrust at university, and probably would prefer a 1908 in a real duel, but not from horseback or a melee. It is a marginally better cutter than Patton's version tho, if you bother to sharpen it.

[Will M]

For 17th Lancer fans, the Death or Glory Boys! Quite possibly from the Crimea era.

[Jim McDougall]

A 17th Lancers sabretache believed of Crimean War period.
A black sabretache can be seen in the Caton-Woodville painting of the charge (1895) but the device is unclear, presumably the skull and bones though.

In research I did some years ago, I found that these sabretaches were for carrying orders and other documents, ironically much as was the order for the charge possibly carried (though Nolan was not with 17th Lancers). These were abolished c.1881. The type carried prior to the Crimea are believed to have been of fabric rather than japanned leather, and had the motto 'death of glory'.