European Piha Kaetta

David · 1st January 2014, 10:45 PM

Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing?

To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above.

Rick · 1st January 2014, 11:33 PM

A matter of legitimacy then .

David · 2nd January 2014, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

A matter of legitimacy then .

Well yes, not just culturally, but also in execution because as far as i know real Piha Kaettas are not cast in one piece in this manner. This is kind of like a Franklin Mint replica to me. A bit pretty on the surface perhaps, but with no soul or substance.
To fill others in on you remark Rick, perhaps we should direct them you the discussion currently on the keris forum.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...754#post164754

VANDOO · 2nd January 2014, 03:06 AM

I AGREE WITH DAVID THE WORKMANSHIP AND TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES USED EXCEED THIS FRENCH MADE ITEM. BOTH ARE NICE BUT ONE IS FORIGN MADE USING NON TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS. I PERSONALLY WOULD PREFER THE TRADITIONAL PHIA OVER THE FRENCH ART PIECE WITH FAMOUS NAMES BUT BOTH ITEMS WOULD BE WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE FRENCH MADE ONE SHOULD APPEAL TO THOSE WHO COLLECT ITEMS MADE BY THE FAMOUS ARTISTS WHO CONTRIBUTED. PERHAPS ANDY WARHOL COULD HAVE MADE SOMETHING CEYLON'ISH BUT THE ITEMS VALUE WOULD BE SECONDARY TO THE NAME OF THE ARTIST AND WHO KNOWS WHAT CULTURE AND TECKNIQUE IT WOULD HAVE EXHIBITED.

VANDOO · 2nd January 2014, 04:29 AM

DOUBLE POST

ariel · 2nd January 2014, 05:58 AM

Not downplaying the beauty and the authentic techniques of the original Piha Kaettas, I am perfectly content with the European thing.
It is, IMHO, a nice homage to the Ceylonese original and does not pretend to be one: it is even signed by the master. It is a curiosity in the same sense as using Japanese motives in contemporary European art and fashion, or Japanese pictures of the late 19th/20th centuries employing purely European techniques. Weapons are no different: the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas ( or was it the other way around? :-)), the Indonesians might have copied their Kerises from Indian examples, and the best contemporary examples of Nihonto are being made by Western masters and are commanding high prices even in Japan.

Art has no borders, and as long as it is not an outright deceitful fake , it is perfectly legitimate and should be judged on its own merits.

ariel · 2nd January 2014, 06:15 AM

Double post.

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2014, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing?

To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above.

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

A&A, outstanding information and follow up on this knife and thank you so much for bringing this thread up and sharing it here. Well done!

David · 2nd January 2014, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Actually I believe you are, and interesting to see this intriguing European made example of these outstanding Sinhalese knives. This posting was from back in the great discussion days and anything that caught the fancy of B.I. was hardly presented lightly. What we are seeing here is not meant to be a comparison, but a historic instance reflecting international diplomacy and trade and much of what we study here has a great deal to do with history.
I think Ariel has expressed this perspective perfectly.

We will have to agree to disagree then. While it may be interesting to discuss how and why this copy was used in international diplomacy and the history of that i see no such discussion on that subject taking place here. Why was this piece created in the first place? Was this a presentation piece? To whom and when? I might see some merit in that discussion if there was some historical perspective to it. As an object on to itself i see nothing particularly fantastic about this piece.
I also disagree that this is the same as outside cultural motifs being incorporated into the art of European culture. Those artist still created something original. This is just a copy and IMHO it has no ethnographic integrity. The Javanese keris may well have it's influences in some Indian dagger form, but it is not a copy of that form. If it were we would find keris forms in India. Those India daggers served as an inspiration for development and the keris evolved in Java as a unique form. And if the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas, did they cast them in one piece to artsy copper paperweights or were they forging real bladed weapons for real use?

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2014, 04:38 PM

Very well put rebuttal David, and now that you have expanded on your comments I can see your perspective, which is interesting, and of course distinctly your opinion. I did not mean to imply this particular piece was actually used in a diplomatic role, but that it was clearly produced during a period where colonial and trade activity had attracted great interest in items of exotica.
As you well point out, this item indeed does not have any specific integrity from an ethnographic posture, that is, it is not culturally representative per se. However it does seem interesting to me, and apparently to others, as I have indicated earlier, from perhaps an artistic and somewhat historic point of view . Antique Arms clearly reflected his interest by reviving this thread of nearly 8 years ago by sharing data which was not only pertinent but extremely helpful in updating this thread, exactly the kind of action many of us here hope for in building collective and archived knowledge on many topics.

Colin, thank you so much for the excellent example you have posted of the Maori club, which illustrates perfectly exactly what I was trying to point out.

I think we are all aware of copies and reproductions of arms and armor, which of course are typically regarded as quite unimportant in the view of those of us who are historically attuned in the collection of arms. However many examples of such arms from earlier periods have actually become antiquities in their own right, case in point those from the atelier of Ernst Schmitt of Germany. Here the copies of medieval and renaissance arms and armor, skillfully crafted and carefully researched were so well executed that many ended up in museum displays years later. While admittedly 'copies', they have gained their own place in the field of arms collecting.

I do see your point however in noting that the character of this piece does not comply with the production of the original weapons in that it is more aligned with artistic merit than sound functionality. I would note here that this is often the case in many weapons of the 18th century forward such as many court type swords and fraternal swords, which were distinctly accoutrements of fashion and regalia, but still count as collectible arms in many fields.

Thank you for explaining your position David, and while we agree to disagree here, it is good that we are able to elaborate on the reasons for our opinions for the benefit of discussion.

Oriental-Arms · 2nd January 2014, 07:57 PM

A side note, I have seen several similar piha by the same caster. Just as an example see attached. Heavy silver plated brass, 35 cm long

spiral · 2nd January 2014, 08:30 PM

To me their nice curiosity's or wall hangers, but hardly arms....

There not intended to be functional, so there not arms.

spiral

ariel · 2nd January 2014, 09:30 PM

Folks, I think the opinions went in the opposite directions, but the courses were parallel so that we could never reach a common destination

The French "piha" was not intended to be a weapon: it was made as an object of art after the fashion of an exotic Sinhalese knife. It could have been used as a letter opener, no more. ( And, BTW, the original Pihas were also not weapons, but rather utility knives; the tasks of the two examples were similar but somewhat different).

We just cannot judge the French example on the basis of its fighting capabilities, and there are plenty of examples among our traditional " sharpies".

Javanese kerises lost their fighting function long ago, with the exception of rare cases of domestic violence, for which purpose the French Piha would also do swimmingly. Still, there are people who collect kerises for their technologically useless pamor patterns, exotic wood, carvings etc. Most of the daggers in the new Robert Hales' book were never drawn in anger, they were just expensive baubles. We have heard from one of the members that the ferocious Omani kattaras were in fact just dancing props. The "golden age" of Caucasian kindjals came well after they outlived their fighting purpose and became a part of the costume, akin to the pocket watch with a thick golden chain.

The French Pihas ( thanks, Artzi, for providing the justification to use the plural :-)) are just nice artistic renditions. Any Piha collector would love to add them to his bunch of the "real stuff" with no fear of being called a sissy.

Just relax, there is no sense going ballistic because some Frenchie made a pretty paperweight:-)

1st January 2014, 10:45 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,219	Am i missing something? Why are we making a big deal about a cast reproduction that, to my eyes at least, doesn't seem to hold a candle to fine examples of the real thing? To me this is something to get excited about, not the cast repro above. Attached Images

1st January 2014, 11:33 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Parallels A matter of legitimacy then .

2nd January 2014, 06:15 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Double post. Last edited by ariel; 2nd January 2014 at 06:17 AM. Reason: double post: the system is capricious today.

2nd January 2014, 07:57 PM	#11
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	European made Piha A side note, I have seen several similar piha by the same caster. Just as an example see attached. Heavy silver plated brass, 35 cm long Attached Images

2nd January 2014, 03:06 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH DAVID THE WORKMANSHIP AND TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES USED EXCEED THIS FRENCH MADE ITEM. BOTH ARE NICE BUT ONE IS FORIGN MADE USING NON TRADITIONAL TECKNIQUES AND MATERIALS. I PERSONALLY WOULD PREFER THE TRADITIONAL PHIA OVER THE FRENCH ART PIECE WITH FAMOUS NAMES BUT BOTH ITEMS WOULD BE WORTHY OF COLLECTING. THE FRENCH MADE ONE SHOULD APPEAL TO THOSE WHO COLLECT ITEMS MADE BY THE FAMOUS ARTISTS WHO CONTRIBUTED. PERHAPS ANDY WARHOL COULD HAVE MADE SOMETHING CEYLON'ISH BUT THE ITEMS VALUE WOULD BE SECONDARY TO THE NAME OF THE ARTIST AND WHO KNOWS WHAT CULTURE AND TECKNIQUE IT WOULD HAVE EXHIBITED.

2nd January 2014, 04:29 AM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DOUBLE POST

2nd January 2014, 05:58 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Not downplaying the beauty and the authentic techniques of the original Piha Kaettas, I am perfectly content with the European thing. It is, IMHO, a nice homage to the Ceylonese original and does not pretend to be one: it is even signed by the master. It is a curiosity in the same sense as using Japanese motives in contemporary European art and fashion, or Japanese pictures of the late 19th/20th centuries employing purely European techniques. Weapons are no different: the Russians made yataghans in Zlatoust, the Venetians copied Moroccan Nimchas ( or was it the other way around? :-)), the Indonesians might have copied their Kerises from Indian examples, and the best contemporary examples of Nihonto are being made by Western masters and are commanding high prices even in Japan. Art has no borders, and as long as it is not an outright deceitful fake , it is perfectly legitimate and should be judged on its own merits.

2nd January 2014, 04:38 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,295	Very well put rebuttal David, and now that you have expanded on your comments I can see your perspective, which is interesting, and of course distinctly your opinion. I did not mean to imply this particular piece was actually used in a diplomatic role, but that it was clearly produced during a period where colonial and trade activity had attracted great interest in items of exotica. As you well point out, this item indeed does not have any specific integrity from an ethnographic posture, that is, it is not culturally representative per se. However it does seem interesting to me, and apparently to others, as I have indicated earlier, from perhaps an artistic and somewhat historic point of view . Antique Arms clearly reflected his interest by reviving this thread of nearly 8 years ago by sharing data which was not only pertinent but extremely helpful in updating this thread, exactly the kind of action many of us here hope for in building collective and archived knowledge on many topics. Colin, thank you so much for the excellent example you have posted of the Maori club, which illustrates perfectly exactly what I was trying to point out. I think we are all aware of copies and reproductions of arms and armor, which of course are typically regarded as quite unimportant in the view of those of us who are historically attuned in the collection of arms. However many examples of such arms from earlier periods have actually become antiquities in their own right, case in point those from the atelier of Ernst Schmitt of Germany. Here the copies of medieval and renaissance arms and armor, skillfully crafted and carefully researched were so well executed that many ended up in museum displays years later. While admittedly 'copies', they have gained their own place in the field of arms collecting. I do see your point however in noting that the character of this piece does not comply with the production of the original weapons in that it is more aligned with artistic merit than sound functionality. I would note here that this is often the case in many weapons of the 18th century forward such as many court type swords and fraternal swords, which were distinctly accoutrements of fashion and regalia, but still count as collectible arms in many fields. Thank you for explaining your position David, and while we agree to disagree here, it is good that we are able to elaborate on the reasons for our opinions for the benefit of discussion.

2nd January 2014, 08:30 PM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	To me their nice curiosity's or wall hangers, but hardly arms.... There not intended to be functional, so there not arms. spiral

2nd January 2014, 09:30 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Folks, I think the opinions went in the opposite directions, but the courses were parallel so that we could never reach a common destination The French "piha" was not intended to be a weapon: it was made as an object of art after the fashion of an exotic Sinhalese knife. It could have been used as a letter opener, no more. ( And, BTW, the original Pihas were also not weapons, but rather utility knives; the tasks of the two examples were similar but somewhat different). We just cannot judge the French example on the basis of its fighting capabilities, and there are plenty of examples among our traditional " sharpies". Javanese kerises lost their fighting function long ago, with the exception of rare cases of domestic violence, for which purpose the French Piha would also do swimmingly. Still, there are people who collect kerises for their technologically useless pamor patterns, exotic wood, carvings etc. Most of the daggers in the new Robert Hales' book were never drawn in anger, they were just expensive baubles. We have heard from one of the members that the ferocious Omani kattaras were in fact just dancing props. The "golden age" of Caucasian kindjals came well after they outlived their fighting purpose and became a part of the costume, akin to the pocket watch with a thick golden chain. The French Pihas ( thanks, Artzi, for providing the justification to use the plural :-)) are just nice artistic renditions. Any Piha collector would love to add them to his bunch of the "real stuff" with no fear of being called a sissy. Just relax, there is no sense going ballistic because some Frenchie made a pretty paperweight:-)