A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michael,

yes i imagine it would take some pages to get a conclusive report on this matter, but a worthy cause i presume.

The pistol is said to be of possible Dutch origin, but i have my doubts. Like a true proud Dutchy i know some historical dates, like the start of the Golden age in 1585 after Antwerp was defeated by the Spanish.

After this many of the important southern Dutch people immigrated to the free north. Before this date, most skilled weapon makers did live in the southern part like Antwerp. Also the fact that the barrel was made by a Spanish maker, Diego de Caias, would sugest a different origin on this piece (since most trading routes between countries at war are al but gone).

The book i got this picture from is Wheellock Firearms of the Royal armouries by Graeme Rimer, page 37.
The pistol used to be decorated in a far superior way than the current state would sugest.

My best guess would be that the whole pistole was made in Spain. The lock has similair decoration like those on the barrel. Also one of the surviving bone plaques has a man in Tudor costume, with spanish beard and all.
I will make some better pictures of the decorations.


The gilded and ivory covered pistol is indeed inverted, i got it like this from the internet but forgot to invert it back.

[Matchlock]

I'm in your corner on all your arguments, Marcus,


And I realize that the views of the Berlin pistol are inverted on the internet - they printed the slide diapositives the wrong way around. I posted the re-inverted images in a former thread.

Actually I have been pondering over a thread on the evolution of buttstocks for quite some time but will have to spend several days scanning from my photo archive before.


Best,
m

[Raf]

Hullo Michael ; just returning briefly to early wheelock crosbows ; here is one I didnt know about but you probably do . Terrible photos. Kunsthistoriches Museum Vienna (D 200 ) C 1520 ? Apparently its self- spanning ...

[Marcus den toom]

I am starting to learn Michael
I was away this weekend, but Saturday the postman brought my book "Superimposed load firearms by Baxter", you where right abut that one, i will be reading till next year

Raf, i myself have thought about this subject. It seems at some points strange that the wheel lock was developed at all, High cost, maintenance and the need for skilled blacksmiths are reasons to suspect a different outcome.
My thoughts about this are that in the time the iginition systems where developed, the Italian empirre was one of the leading authorities in art and science (talking abut the beginning of the Renaisance). Italy was at war with France and Spain during the turn of the century (1500). Thus the need for new firearms (better firearms win wars).
I have no information as of yet about the geological places of flint. But i do now that the coast of France and Spain are covered with this material. This would make it easier for these countries to develope a flintstriking mechanism.
The italians had to come up with something else i think because of the lack of flint (assumption!!). Pyrith, used for wheel locks, has to be scraped by a piece of iron to create sparks, if you would just strike a piece of pyrith it would crumble without effect. Thus a rotating wheel or even earlier, a horizontal bar with a rough surface to scrape a pyrith stone, forgot the name of this device .

As i already stated, this is just a assumption, some good old facts would do us good .

[Raf]

I was tempted to suggest that the earliest wheelocks might have been created by crossbow makers. On the not unreasonable assumption that they had (once) been at the forefront of mechanising the weapons of mass destruction and had most to loose from the development of firearms . And therefore the most to gain. Transferring the technology is not that difficult to imagine. A sort of proto- wheelock using a thong wound around an axel powered by a large spring which is half a crossbow prod. The crossbow nut forming the basis for the wheel and the release mechanism. The experiment might have been sufficiently encouraging to suggest it was worth developing and the rest , as they say , is history. All the earliest wheelocks we know are combined with crossbows but we don't , as far as I know see combined crossbows and matchlocks .

There may well be something in the flint / pyrites argument . My personal feeling is that the two systems must have developed at more or less the same time , but we just don't seem to be able to find the evidence .

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

I am starting to learn Michael
I was away this weekend, but Saturday the postman brought my book "Superimposed load firearms by Baxter", you where right abut that one, i will be reading till next year
.

Well done, Marcus,


Excellent purchase, that one! It's so good to see when young people invest in rare books as it is a life investment!

For all others: this is the book we're talking about:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...r+superimposed


m

[Marcus den toom]

Hi Michl,


Sorry for my late reply, it slipped my attention
It is funny i should come across this post since i bought an other rare book (2 actually).
Not as complete as yours (with all your own added information), but i managed to track down the first edition of Johan F. Støckel (Haandskydevaabens bedömmelse) for a very good price.

[Matchlock]

Congrats, Marcus!

m

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Raf

Hullo Michael ; just returning briefly to early wheelock crosbows ; here is one I didnt know about but you probably do . Terrible photos. Kunsthistoriches Museum Vienna (D 200 ) C 1520 ? Apparently its self- spanning ...

Hullo Raf,


My computer mouse died so I could not access the forum or anything since Friday.

I was to the reserve collection of the Vienna Waffensammlung in the Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien in the 1990's when the A&A collection was closed to the public. I photographed and handled literally anything that was early and I can tell you for sure that there is no such thing there. What book exactly did you take the scans from? Should there be a book or booklet that escaped me and my greedy library?


Thanks, and best,
Michael

[Raf]

Michael . Collection no is D.200. Scanned from no 763 and 764; Howard L Blackmore 'Guns and Rifles of the World.' Chancellor press 1965. Unpromising title but the illustrations are well chosen and the text is I think O.K.too . You must have one somewhere ...

These are the only two images I have of the Venice crossbows. Quite different from the German example. I will try to persuade my partner to take some better pictures next time she is in Venice.

[Marcus den toom]

I would be suprised if Michael didn't have a beter picture, even i have on

My eyes are acting up again (need new glasses) but this is what i could find. I remember a other book with even better pictures but i will search for them tomorrow if there is no one else who beats me to it

[Matchlock]

Hi Raf,


Thanks, of course I have Howard Blackmore's Guns & Rifles of the World, I had just completely forgotten about those tiny two prints. It's a riddle to me how this fragment should be in Vienna. It was not there when I was.

None of the Venice crossbows (more details attached) can, according to the elongated muzzle section, be any earlier that ca. 1520; I would say 'ca. 1520-35' for all of them. The 'foot'/base of the pyrite dog and the overall shape of the dog are much more evolved than the one on the Munich crossbow combination, and screws obviously were widely in use already when these Venice combinations were made ...
The earliest-type of lock mechanidsm is that on the wheellock-axe combination, ca. 1515-20, two screws only!, see bottom attachments.


Best,
m