A 1548 Nuremberg Dagger-grip Over-and-Under Double Wheellock Pistol

Raf · 12th December 2013, 07:08 PM

Hullo Michael . Do we have a translation/ communication problem ? I thought this was exactly what I was describing very clearly in my last post. What I was also trying to do was explain how the earlier push button sear locking system conferred some advantages over the later, for the sake of argument , post 1550, two part locking system which uses a small spring to engage the sear with the wheel slot and relies on the camming effect of the of the wheel driving the sear out of engagement once the secondary prop is released by the trigger. The advantage being that in the push button system their is no drag on the inside face of the wheel caused by the primary sear spring continuing to push the sear onto the inside face of the wheel after it has disengaged. And as you say pressing the button while the lock is being spanned means you can ' feel ' that the sear has properly engaged with its slot. Presumably , with time and better construction it was found that the disadvantages of the primary sear dragging on the face of the wheel didn't have a significant effect on the efficiency of the mechanism and this system was abandoned so the wheel could now be spanned without having an additional button to press. But one can also see how this 'failsafe' system might have persisted longer on simpler and more primitive locks which is what we see.
Its confusing to imply that the push button sear is a feature of all early German locks , since the earliest locks dateable German locks ( the combined wheelock / crossbow which you illustrated ) show a sear arrangement where the primary sear is positively engaged with the wheel by a spring and disengaged by a secondary bar operated by the trigger . In principal exactly the same as we see on Italian locks with a single locking bar which is positively engaged with the wheel by a spring and released by the trigger acting directly on the tail of the sear.
Not I would have thought that controversial and I don't think we need to call in expert witnesses.

Matchlock · 12th December 2013, 08:34 PM

Hi Raf,

I must admit that we might have a communication problem. Obviously I did not quite get the essence of your argumentation, especially as it was without any illustrations, in which case I am completely 'Lost in Translation', and you put 'two weak' and 'two strong' where I had expected to read 'too'. I'm also not sure what you meant by 'secondary sear prop.'

Please forgive a bloody German who has just been trying to improve his English ...

. I am sure that you can explain your point so that I can grasp it.

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 12th December 2013, 08:54 PM

For a German your English writing skills are well within the Dutch standards

(every dutch person gets schooled in at least 4 languages so i think we can set a certain standard

).

On topic than, i think my earlier post has been overlooked?

If there is any room for such a study i would be more than happy to go trough my books to compile a photografical time scale on the early pistol butstock/handgrips. The earlier ones will be trick since i have limited information on them, but with some help we might be able to create something decent

12th December 2013, 08:34 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Raf, I must admit that we might have a communication problem. Obviously I did not quite get the essence of your argumentation, especially as it was without any illustrations, in which case I am completely 'Lost in Translation', and you put 'two weak' and 'two strong' where I had expected to read 'too'. I'm also not sure what you meant by 'secondary sear prop.' Please forgive a bloody German who has just been trying to improve his English ... . I am sure that you can explain your point so that I can grasp it. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 13th December 2013 at 01:21 PM.

12th December 2013, 07:08 PM	#1
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 252	Hullo Michael . Do we have a translation/ communication problem ? I thought this was exactly what I was describing very clearly in my last post. What I was also trying to do was explain how the earlier push button sear locking system conferred some advantages over the later, for the sake of argument , post 1550, two part locking system which uses a small spring to engage the sear with the wheel slot and relies on the camming effect of the of the wheel driving the sear out of engagement once the secondary prop is released by the trigger. The advantage being that in the push button system their is no drag on the inside face of the wheel caused by the primary sear spring continuing to push the sear onto the inside face of the wheel after it has disengaged. And as you say pressing the button while the lock is being spanned means you can ' feel ' that the sear has properly engaged with its slot. Presumably , with time and better construction it was found that the disadvantages of the primary sear dragging on the face of the wheel didn't have a significant effect on the efficiency of the mechanism and this system was abandoned so the wheel could now be spanned without having an additional button to press. But one can also see how this 'failsafe' system might have persisted longer on simpler and more primitive locks which is what we see. Its confusing to imply that the push button sear is a feature of all early German locks , since the earliest locks dateable German locks ( the combined wheelock / crossbow which you illustrated ) show a sear arrangement where the primary sear is positively engaged with the wheel by a spring and disengaged by a secondary bar operated by the trigger . In principal exactly the same as we see on Italian locks with a single locking bar which is positively engaged with the wheel by a spring and released by the trigger acting directly on the tail of the sear. Not I would have thought that controversial and I don't think we need to call in expert witnesses.

12th December 2013, 08:54 PM	#3
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 535	For a German your English writing skills are well within the Dutch standards (every dutch person gets schooled in at least 4 languages so i think we can set a certain standard ). On topic than, i think my earlier post has been overlooked? If there is any room for such a study i would be more than happy to go trough my books to compile a photografical time scale on the early pistol butstock/handgrips. The earlier ones will be trick since i have limited information on them, but with some help we might be able to create something decent