Wootz ingots, where do they all come from?

Ann Feuerbach · 1st November 2005, 03:57 PM

Hi Jens,
Having looked at many genuine wootz and pulad ingots, all the so called wootz ingots that I have seen for sale, are not genuine. The shape only slighly resembles genuine ingots. They are probably Mill Balls. Mill balls were made of cast iron or cast steel (therefore they can have a dendritic structure is polished and etched, like crucible steel). They were used to crush ore in the 18th century. This can produce a sort of pock marked surface, similar to the crucible steel slag. Beware of these well preseved ingots.
On another note, whether or not they are crucible steel or Mill balls, they are not from an excavation and are therefore looted from industrial archaeological sites. Buying them supports looting, looting causes loss of valuable and irreplaceable information.
I am working on comparing genuine ingots to mill balls.

Jens Nordlunde · 1st November 2005, 04:56 PM

Hi Ann,

Thank you for your answer, which I find very interesting as I for one, never thought that the ingots offered for sale were mill balls. My knowledge of ingots is not very big, so I am glad you told this, as others also can benefit from this information too.

The interests between collectors and scientists can/does differ sometimes, and that can be a problem not easily solved, but the fact that dealers sell these mill balls as wootz ingots is appalling, as there are enough fakes on the market as it is.

You write that the mill balls were used in the 18th century, what did they use before that time?

I would also like to know something more about the ore. When they found an ore, did they cut it out in blocks or in smaller pieces?

I guess that they also sometimes found earth with enough iron to make a production, how did they part the iron ore from the earth?

I know that some ores were inferior and others not. Did they make test melting’s? In some books it is hinted that they did start a production for export at once – but did they?

Ann Feuerbach · 1st November 2005, 06:29 PM

Hi Jens,
At this point in time I am finding out more about Mill balls. Most preindustrial mining used water or just plain labor to crush ores. Assaying of ore was done since the earliest of times. I do not remember many details now...it has been a few years since my archaeometallurgy M.A.

Rick · 2nd November 2005, 02:19 AM

Hi Ann , some of these Mill Balls are referenced as coming from the Mojave Desert in the SFI thread ; these then must have been artifacts from Spanish Colonial days , no ?

When did the use of Mill Balls cease in iron production ?

I wonder how much Iron production went on in the Mojave back then ?

Jeff Pringle · 2nd November 2005, 04:38 AM

Hi, I'm jumping in from the SFI thread -

I found those balls at a mine which was in operation ~mid 20th century, and it was not an iron mine. They are just an example of a type of crushing technology which is used for many different mining and processing applications, not limited to ore type or a particular century.
I'm not sure how far back the use of ball mills for ore processing goes in the Mojave, probably to the mid 19th (when it all started there), but it continues to this day, and I think they are more commonly post-industrial tech.
Most of the early mining activity in the American SW was probably wiped out by later, more industrial efforts, there are some pretty huge iron mines from the early - mid 20th C. out there.
Edit - I checked Biringuccio's Pirotechnia to see what miners were using in the 16th C, and he's pretty vague, lots of mentions of milling things, but I didn't see much description of the mills - he mentions stamp mills & flour-type mills.
I recall some reference to the Spanish mines in California crushing ore or mixing with mercury using a stone wheel that rolls around in a circle, but can't find the specific book.

Jeff

Jens Nordlunde · 2nd November 2005, 02:07 PM

Hi Jeff,

Welcome to the forum.
True, mining in the Mojave Desert has been going on for more than a thousand years, if one can trust the written word. Mining gems and a lot of other things.

Could your mill balls go for Indian wootz ingots, or should I ask, how much expert do you have to be, to see that they are not Indian ingots, remembering that most of us have only seen ingots on pictures?

Jens

Rick · 2nd November 2005, 02:09 PM

Thanks very much for the further information Jeff .
I'd love to see a picture of the blade that you forged from one of these babys .

Can you get a picture of the pattern or is it too fine to show up ?

Jeff Pringle · 2nd November 2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Could your mill balls go for Indian wootz ingots

Well, they look sorta like wootz ingots, but not really - The shape is too variable (each one slightly different but not in a consistant way); and there is no definite liquid side/crucible side, which is very obvious on small batch crucible steel ingots. And about half the ones I got are regular steel, nothing wootzy about them.
If I had not seen a pile of them next to a giant barrel at a mine, though, I'd be hard pressed to come up with an explanation for the shape.

Quote:

Can you get a picture of the pattern or is it too fine to show up?

I'll try to get a photo, my camera's got some macro capability. I'm prob'ly not going to ever forge one of these Mojave mill balls into a blade, though - I got my own crucible steel for that

Jeff

2nd November 2005, 04:38 AM	#5
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	Hi, I'm jumping in from the SFI thread - I found those balls at a mine which was in operation ~mid 20th century, and it was not an iron mine. They are just an example of a type of crushing technology which is used for many different mining and processing applications, not limited to ore type or a particular century. I'm not sure how far back the use of ball mills for ore processing goes in the Mojave, probably to the mid 19th (when it all started there), but it continues to this day, and I think they are more commonly post-industrial tech. Most of the early mining activity in the American SW was probably wiped out by later, more industrial efforts, there are some pretty huge iron mines from the early - mid 20th C. out there. Edit - I checked Biringuccio's Pirotechnia to see what miners were using in the 16th C, and he's pretty vague, lots of mentions of milling things, but I didn't see much description of the mills - he mentions stamp mills & flour-type mills. I recall some reference to the Spanish mines in California crushing ore or mixing with mercury using a stone wheel that rolls around in a circle, but can't find the specific book. Jeff Last edited by Jeff Pringle; 2nd November 2005 at 02:27 PM.

1st November 2005, 03:57 PM	#1
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi Jens, Having looked at many genuine wootz and pulad ingots, all the so called wootz ingots that I have seen for sale, are not genuine. The shape only slighly resembles genuine ingots. They are probably Mill Balls. Mill balls were made of cast iron or cast steel (therefore they can have a dendritic structure is polished and etched, like crucible steel). They were used to crush ore in the 18th century. This can produce a sort of pock marked surface, similar to the crucible steel slag. Beware of these well preseved ingots. On another note, whether or not they are crucible steel or Mill balls, they are not from an excavation and are therefore looted from industrial archaeological sites. Buying them supports looting, looting causes loss of valuable and irreplaceable information. I am working on comparing genuine ingots to mill balls.

1st November 2005, 04:56 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ann, Thank you for your answer, which I find very interesting as I for one, never thought that the ingots offered for sale were mill balls. My knowledge of ingots is not very big, so I am glad you told this, as others also can benefit from this information too. The interests between collectors and scientists can/does differ sometimes, and that can be a problem not easily solved, but the fact that dealers sell these mill balls as wootz ingots is appalling, as there are enough fakes on the market as it is. You write that the mill balls were used in the 18th century, what did they use before that time? I would also like to know something more about the ore. When they found an ore, did they cut it out in blocks or in smaller pieces? I guess that they also sometimes found earth with enough iron to make a production, how did they part the iron ore from the earth? I know that some ores were inferior and others not. Did they make test melting’s? In some books it is hinted that they did start a production for export at once – but did they?

1st November 2005, 06:29 PM	#3
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi Jens, At this point in time I am finding out more about Mill balls. Most preindustrial mining used water or just plain labor to crush ores. Assaying of ore was done since the earliest of times. I do not remember many details now...it has been a few years since my archaeometallurgy M.A.

2nd November 2005, 02:19 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Hi Ann , some of these Mill Balls are referenced as coming from the Mojave Desert in the SFI thread ; these then must have been artifacts from Spanish Colonial days , no ? When did the use of Mill Balls cease in iron production ? I wonder how much Iron production went on in the Mojave back then ?

2nd November 2005, 02:07 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jeff, Welcome to the forum. True, mining in the Mojave Desert has been going on for more than a thousand years, if one can trust the written word. Mining gems and a lot of other things. Could your mill balls go for Indian wootz ingots, or should I ask, how much expert do you have to be, to see that they are not Indian ingots, remembering that most of us have only seen ingots on pictures? Jens

2nd November 2005, 02:09 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Thanks very much for the further information Jeff . I'd love to see a picture of the blade that you forged from one of these babys . Can you get a picture of the pattern or is it too fine to show up ?