Before the Ball: Clod Shot of 1375 - the Earliest Lead Gun Ammunition!

Andi · 20th November 2013, 08:31 PM

Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core.

Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Matchlock · 21st November 2013, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andi

Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core.

Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Hi Andi,

There is of course more than one possibility how these iron cores could have been made.
All I can tell with authority is that mine was cast in a mold, and hammering them to such a smooth and perfect surface is just out of my mind (without intending to brag, I got a lot of smithing experience).
I will post images soon though.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 21st November 2013, 04:17 PM

The sample from collection, weighing 1 kg and very similar to the bottom image in post #28.

The traces where the mold halves joined are clearly visible, so it was cast.
It weighs 1.2 kg!

Any guesses what the central holes on the six larger sides might have been for?

Best,
Michael

Marcus den toom · 17th September 2015, 02:32 PM

I bought these pieces a few weeks ago from two seperet metal detector enthausiast.
The first three where found near a castle in Boxmeer, The Netherlands (south east, near the river Maas).

The first one weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25,5mm when measured at the flatened side around the middle. This is the most likely bore caliber.

The second weighs 31grams and is 20mm in diameter.

The third has lost most of its stone core, but some smaller stones remain. It also weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25mm. This one differs from the first one because the first one most likely has just one single piece of stone while the third has multiple smaller stones and woould have acted like shot. A X-ray of some sort could show more evidence.

The fourth piece was found near Deventer, TheNetherlands near the river Ijsel.
It weighs 61 grams and has a 24mm diameter.

Andi · 17th September 2015, 06:07 PM

Congratulations Marcus!
I also planned to reconstruct such type of ammunition but I am still not sure how to do it.... Are the pebbles cast into the lead or is the lead folded over the stones?

Marcus den toom · 17th September 2015, 06:21 PM

Hi Andi, thank you i am quit happy with them as well

The surface is mostly smooth with no overlapping lead, so i would say they where integrally cast. They probably selected stones or pieces of stone that would fit within a mould and put those pieces in the mould before pouring the lead in.

There are also a couple of lead balls with an iron core, made in what i supose is the same way. The pieces of metal are not al round, but seem to have corners apart from the heavy oxidation.

Andi · 17th September 2015, 08:09 PM

Dear Marcus

Thanks for your reply. That sounds logically to me, good to get it confirmed

batjka · 18th September 2015, 08:14 PM

Looking at the Matchlock's drawing on the top of page 1, the left man has a bore-diameter rod with a thin extension that he stuck through the hole in the projectile.

Matchlock's theory was that the holes in the shot were used to transmit the ignition to the superimposed loads in the barrel. But since you clearly see numerous touch holes in the barrel, it just doesn't make sense. There would be gases escaping from these holes, reducing the pressure and velocity. If Matchlock's theory concerning the center holes in the projectiles was to be believed, the barrel would have had to be solid without any touch holes.

I want to propose another theory - the holes in the shot were used to measure the distance between projectiles to ensure that the powder charges properly line up with the touch holes. That is why the man on the left has a "measuring probe" inserted through the center hole in the clot shot.

I would love to have discussed it with Michael, but unfortunately it is not to be. Hopefully he will get the proper explanation from the real gunners depicted in the drawing up there.

RIP.

Marcus den toom · 19th September 2015, 07:53 AM

Hi Batjka,

We all are shocked by the loss of our dear friend Michael, the knowledge he provided was always of high quality and insight.

I think you have mixed up his explanation on post 1 and 22. Post one depicts a tillered handgun with multiple touch holes and thus the need for igniting every single shot seperatly.

Post 22 depicts a tillered handgun where there is no touch hole. The shots are fired by igniting the first load on top which travels trough the pieces of clodshot (lead bar shot) and thus firing in rapid succesion all of the inserted pieces.

I hope this explains Michael his posts a bit more.

21st November 2013, 04:17 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The sample from collection, weighing 1 kg and very similar to the bottom image in post #28. The traces where the mold halves joined are clearly visible, so it was cast. It weighs 1.2 kg! Any guesses what the central holes on the six larger sides might have been for? Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 21st November 2013 at 08:55 PM.

17th September 2015, 02:32 PM	#4
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Clodshot with stone core I bought these pieces a few weeks ago from two seperet metal detector enthausiast. The first three where found near a castle in Boxmeer, The Netherlands (south east, near the river Maas). The first one weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25,5mm when measured at the flatened side around the middle. This is the most likely bore caliber. The second weighs 31grams and is 20mm in diameter. The third has lost most of its stone core, but some smaller stones remain. It also weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25mm. This one differs from the first one because the first one most likely has just one single piece of stone while the third has multiple smaller stones and woould have acted like shot. A X-ray of some sort could show more evidence. The fourth piece was found near Deventer, TheNetherlands near the river Ijsel. It weighs 61 grams and has a 24mm diameter. Attached Images

17th September 2015, 06:21 PM	#6
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Hi Andi, thank you i am quit happy with them as well The surface is mostly smooth with no overlapping lead, so i would say they where integrally cast. They probably selected stones or pieces of stone that would fit within a mould and put those pieces in the mould before pouring the lead in. There are also a couple of lead balls with an iron core, made in what i supose is the same way. The pieces of metal are not al round, but seem to have corners apart from the heavy oxidation. Attached Images

20th November 2013, 08:31 PM	#1
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core. Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

17th September 2015, 06:07 PM	#5
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Congratulations Marcus! I also planned to reconstruct such type of ammunition but I am still not sure how to do it.... Are the pebbles cast into the lead or is the lead folded over the stones?

17th September 2015, 08:09 PM	#7
Andi Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Halstenbek, Germany Posts: 203	Dear Marcus Thanks for your reply. That sounds logically to me, good to get it confirmed

18th September 2015, 08:14 PM	#8
batjka Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 39	Looking at the Matchlock's drawing on the top of page 1, the left man has a bore-diameter rod with a thin extension that he stuck through the hole in the projectile. Matchlock's theory was that the holes in the shot were used to transmit the ignition to the superimposed loads in the barrel. But since you clearly see numerous touch holes in the barrel, it just doesn't make sense. There would be gases escaping from these holes, reducing the pressure and velocity. If Matchlock's theory concerning the center holes in the projectiles was to be believed, the barrel would have had to be solid without any touch holes. I want to propose another theory - the holes in the shot were used to measure the distance between projectiles to ensure that the powder charges properly line up with the touch holes. That is why the man on the left has a "measuring probe" inserted through the center hole in the clot shot. I would love to have discussed it with Michael, but unfortunately it is not to be. Hopefully he will get the proper explanation from the real gunners depicted in the drawing up there. RIP.

19th September 2015, 07:53 AM	#9
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 534	Hi Batjka, We all are shocked by the loss of our dear friend Michael, the knowledge he provided was always of high quality and insight. I think you have mixed up his explanation on post 1 and 22. Post one depicts a tillered handgun with multiple touch holes and thus the need for igniting every single shot seperatly. Post 22 depicts a tillered handgun where there is no touch hole. The shots are fired by igniting the first load on top which travels trough the pieces of clodshot (lead bar shot) and thus firing in rapid succesion all of the inserted pieces. I hope this explains Michael his posts a bit more.