Gold Keris - Malay with Bugis Influence?

Jean · 20th November 2013, 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Is it gilt, or is it gold plate? There is a difference.

My guess is that this is gold plate.

Both are pretty common and at least in Jawa relate more to the owner's wishes than to any regal or vice regal association. I do not know about what might apply in other places.

Alan,
Could you please explain to us the difference between gilt and gold-plated as used in Java? I think I basically know but not in detail.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 12:02 PM

Not as used in Jawa Jean, but rather as we distinguish between the two..

In Jawa they will refer to both as "sepuhan", either would be "sepuh mas". However for us, ie, we bules, we distinguish between something that has been plated with electricity, either heavy technologically superior plating, or market place plating done in little troughs with a car battery, and the various types of true gilding. But then in English we use the same word, "gilt", or "gild" for applying a thin coat or covering of gold to either wood or metal. We have fire gilding, where the gold is dissolved in mercury and the mercury burnt off --- you can still get this done in Solo ---then we have the type of gilding where thin gold leaf is glued to wood, in Jawa this is called "prada" (pron. "prodo").

In the case of this pendok, I raised the question because if it had been gilded rather than plated it would look a lot duller than it does, and very probably metal would have been showing through the gold. This is not the case with this pendok, so I'm almost certain it has plated rather than gilded.

Jean · 20th November 2013, 01:03 PM

Thank you Alan.

Battara · 20th November 2013, 02:19 PM

Plus gilding is a thicker application of gold than plating.

David · 20th November 2013, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Plus gilding is a thicker application of gold than plating.

I guess i'm a little confused. If gilding is thicker why would it be more likely that the base metal would show through as Alan suggests?

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 08:55 PM

Its as I said Jean:- there are various types of gilding. Battara obviously means the type of gilding that is applied to wood, where gold leaf is used, or fire gilding to metal which can also leave a heavy deposit. Have a look at the little gold birds on that pendok I posted a pic of to another current thread:- those birds are fire gilding.

The type of gilding that we find on old pendoks is usually pretty thin. Even when it is electro plate on an old pendok, it will be thin and soft and very subject to wear. They cannot do hard gold plating, or hard silver plating in Jawa, as far as I am aware. The gold plate on your bathroom taps is very hard and does not wear much at all. Then again, sometimes gold and silver plate will be sprayed with a protective lacquer.

There are a lot of processes that we call "gilding" in English, that in Jawa have other names, usually "sepuh mas" for gold to metal and "prada" for gold to wood. There are other names used also in Jawa, but I forget them, because you might only hear that word once in five years.

There is a lot of variation in plating, its not all equal.

Battara · 22nd November 2013, 12:20 AM

Alan is correct.

What I have found is that most gilding is thicker (especially done in the old ways) than plating (which is microns thick). Basically it takes more gold to cover an area, but as Alan said, an occupational hazard is that there can be uneven in application. Plating, though thinner and more easily worn off, is equal in application all over.

20th November 2013, 12:02 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Not as used in Jawa Jean, but rather as we distinguish between the two.. In Jawa they will refer to both as "sepuhan", either would be "sepuh mas". However for us, ie, we bules, we distinguish between something that has been plated with electricity, either heavy technologically superior plating, or market place plating done in little troughs with a car battery, and the various types of true gilding. But then in English we use the same word, "gilt", or "gild" for applying a thin coat or covering of gold to either wood or metal. We have fire gilding, where the gold is dissolved in mercury and the mercury burnt off --- you can still get this done in Solo ---then we have the type of gilding where thin gold leaf is glued to wood, in Jawa this is called "prada" (pron. "prodo"). In the case of this pendok, I raised the question because if it had been gilded rather than plated it would look a lot duller than it does, and very probably metal would have been showing through the gold. This is not the case with this pendok, so I'm almost certain it has plated rather than gilded.

20th November 2013, 01:03 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan.

20th November 2013, 02:19 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Plus gilding is a thicker application of gold than plating.

20th November 2013, 08:55 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Its as I said Jean:- there are various types of gilding. Battara obviously means the type of gilding that is applied to wood, where gold leaf is used, or fire gilding to metal which can also leave a heavy deposit. Have a look at the little gold birds on that pendok I posted a pic of to another current thread:- those birds are fire gilding. The type of gilding that we find on old pendoks is usually pretty thin. Even when it is electro plate on an old pendok, it will be thin and soft and very subject to wear. They cannot do hard gold plating, or hard silver plating in Jawa, as far as I am aware. The gold plate on your bathroom taps is very hard and does not wear much at all. Then again, sometimes gold and silver plate will be sprayed with a protective lacquer. There are a lot of processes that we call "gilding" in English, that in Jawa have other names, usually "sepuh mas" for gold to metal and "prada" for gold to wood. There are other names used also in Jawa, but I forget them, because you might only hear that word once in five years. There is a lot of variation in plating, its not all equal.

22nd November 2013, 12:20 AM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Alan is correct. What I have found is that most gilding is thicker (especially done in the old ways) than plating (which is microns thick). Basically it takes more gold to cover an area, but as Alan said, an occupational hazard is that there can be uneven in application. Plating, though thinner and more easily worn off, is equal in application all over.