Palembang Keris for your comment

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 08:15 AM

John, I think you might find that the hilt cup on the second keris is brass, possibly gold plated or gilded.

Palembang is in South Sumatra, it had and has long time political and cultural ties with the House of Mataram in Central Jawa, and was also influenced by Banten. Because of these associations the keris that come from Palembang very often have features that resemble either Banten keris, or Central Jawa keris.

"suwasa" (ngoko) or "suwaos"" ( krama) is low content gold alloy, supposedly anything under 14 carat. There are a lot of ways to spell this word, and there are other words for the same alloy. There is another alloy that is also called suwasa, and that is what we call in English "pinchbeck", the only way to tell the difference between pinchbeck and low carat gold is to get it tested by a jeweller.

Jean · 20th November 2013, 09:16 AM

John,
Your first kris has a blade with ganja iras (integrated with the blade) which is very common in South Sumatra. The ivory hilt is in one of the specific Jawa deman styles from Palembang and a masterpiece indeed.
The second kris has a rare hilt in gana style which apparently originates from South Sumatra also although I saw some specimens fitted on Javanese krisses.
Both blades would benefit from cleaning and staining.
Best regards

jwkiernan · 20th November 2013, 03:51 PM

[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]John, I think you might find that the hilt cup on the second keris is brass, possibly gold plated or gilded.

Thanks Alan for the information...my first instinct on the second keris hilt cup was brass, but I truly wonder if it is plated...no tarnish, no evidence of tarnishing.

"Both blades would benefit from cleaning and staining."

Jean, thank you for your comments as well. I have read several things on this board about cleaning/staining keris blades...where does one get this done? Surely no place in the States? As far as the cleaning (nontraditional) once I received them they where all cleaned to stop/remove any active rust, wood and ivory all hydrated. They weren't horrible, but they hadn't been given any "love" for a while.

Thanks again for the information!

All my best,
John

David · 20th November 2013, 05:19 PM

I don't see any need to clean/stain the ivory hilted one.
I could stain the the other one for you John, but you might not get it back.

Both are lovely BTW.

Jean · 20th November 2013, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I don't see any need to clean/stain the ivory hilted one.

Well, the pictures are not very sharp but I seem to distinguish some black rust spots on the sorsoran and at the tip especially?
Regards

David · 20th November 2013, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Well, the pictures are not very sharp but I seem to distinguish some black rust spots on the sorsoran and at the tip especially?
Regards

Your eyes are sharper than mine Jean.

Even so, if some residual rust remains on this blade rust removal does not necessary mean restraining.

jwkiernan · 20th November 2013, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Well, the pictures are not very sharp but I seem to distinguish some black rust spots on the sorsoran and at the tip especially?
Regards

Jean, the original shots of these are super sharp but I had to resize them all to upload them.

Each blade that had any rust on them have been worked with steel wool and oil in those spots. I have seen several times folks post about "picking" rust...I even tried that...this black rust seems solid and stable...should the blades be soaked in WD-40 for a time?

I'll do just about anything to preserve these things!

David, I may take you up on the staining...up to the part of the blade not coming back!

Keep the info coming guys...I am learning a lot!

Sajen · 20th November 2013, 07:01 PM

Hi John,

two very nice keris you have there, agree with the others about the origin. But like David I don't see any need to stain both blades. The second blade you can try to stain it with hot vinegar but I doubt that there will be seen a similar pamor like by the first one. The blade is very very nice, just stunning. I have a Palembang keris with a similar handle like yours, at weekend I will post some pictures. But yours is much better.

Regards,

Detlef

Jean · 20th November 2013, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwkiernan

this black rust seems solid and stable...should the blades be soaked in WD-40 for a time?

Hi John,
You can fully get rid of the black rust spots by soaking the blade in pure vinegar or 10% citric acid for 24h or slightly more with regular scrubbings (see example) but then the pamor contrast will mostly disappear and you would need to treat the blade with warangan or arsenic oxide.... Personally and from the pictures I would opt for the full treating process.

A. G. Maisey · 20th November 2013, 09:44 PM

To stain or not to stain?

These days just about every keris we see, from anywhere, is stained.

Buyers expect it. Try selling a keris that is unstained and you very quickly find out that the price a buyer is willing to pay drops through the floor.

Collectors, especially collectors in the western world do want the pamor pattern to jump out of the blade and blind them.

However.
My personal opinion, and it is an opinion, not a widely held piece of knowledge, is that this staining thing is pretty recent and might be able to be attributed to human laziness, or perhaps more kindly, a new direction in taste.

Last year I handled a lot of very old blades in European museums. None had any evidence of ever having been stained, the surfaces were smooth and polished, where a blade did have a pamor you needed to get it under angled light to see it.

Similarly, I have seen and handled blades in the Surakarta Karaton store rooms. Many old blades bear no evidence of stain. From memory,there is an old blade that has never been in use , on display in the Karaton museum, and that has a Bali-like finish and a very light stain.

Sometimes in carvings from the classical era we see weapons with rays of light emanating from them; I do not know if we can interpret this as a depiction of the blade having a spiritual quality, or if it is simply depiction of reflected light.

Until the regeneration of interest in keris that has occurred since about 1980, if I bought a Peninsula or Bugis keris from outside point of origin, say from Britain, or USA or here in Australia, these keris were usually polished, or at least, they bore evidence of an unstained finish --- not always so, but usually.

So, if I look at these keris that John has shown us, my inclination would be to do almost nothing.

The ivory hilted one I would probably give a good soak with WD40 or some other penetrating oil, then gentle selective cleaning with picks, a hard toothbrush and maybe a little bit of steel wool wound around the end of a sate stick. Wash with mineral turps and toothbrush, dry with hairdryer, drench again with WD40, allow to dry, then apply a long term protective oil and store in plastic film.

I find it advisable to use a 2X or 3X jeweler's loupe when doing this sort of work.

The horn hilted one I'd probably use a small acid brush and just apply the acid to the corroded areas. I'd probably use hydrochloric and I would not leave it to work and walk away, I'd be watching it while it worked. Then I'd pick the loose corrosion out of the pits and repeat and repeat until I got down to hard metal. When the corrosion was 99% gone it would get a light cleaning with vinegar or citric acid, get rinsed well, WD40 over night and protective oil and plastic film. I would not stain this second blade. Not if it was going into my own collection I wouldn't.

I've used a few "probably's" here. I've done that because if I handled these keris my opinions might change, but from what I can see the above is how I would proceed.

Old, dry wood, ivory, bone, horn, all respond well to repeated application of hand rubbed baby oil.

Naturally I would demount the blades before doing anything at all.

20th November 2013, 08:15 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	John, I think you might find that the hilt cup on the second keris is brass, possibly gold plated or gilded. Palembang is in South Sumatra, it had and has long time political and cultural ties with the House of Mataram in Central Jawa, and was also influenced by Banten. Because of these associations the keris that come from Palembang very often have features that resemble either Banten keris, or Central Jawa keris. "suwasa" (ngoko) or "suwaos"" ( krama) is low content gold alloy, supposedly anything under 14 carat. There are a lot of ways to spell this word, and there are other words for the same alloy. There is another alloy that is also called suwasa, and that is what we call in English "pinchbeck", the only way to tell the difference between pinchbeck and low carat gold is to get it tested by a jeweller.

20th November 2013, 09:16 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	John, Your first kris has a blade with ganja iras (integrated with the blade) which is very common in South Sumatra. The ivory hilt is in one of the specific Jawa deman styles from Palembang and a masterpiece indeed. The second kris has a rare hilt in gana style which apparently originates from South Sumatra also although I saw some specimens fitted on Javanese krisses. Both blades would benefit from cleaning and staining. Best regards

20th November 2013, 03:51 PM	#3
jwkiernan Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 37	[QUOTE=A. G. Maisey]John, I think you might find that the hilt cup on the second keris is brass, possibly gold plated or gilded. Thanks Alan for the information...my first instinct on the second keris hilt cup was brass, but I truly wonder if it is plated...no tarnish, no evidence of tarnishing. "Both blades would benefit from cleaning and staining." Jean, thank you for your comments as well. I have read several things on this board about cleaning/staining keris blades...where does one get this done? Surely no place in the States? As far as the cleaning (nontraditional) once I received them they where all cleaned to stop/remove any active rust, wood and ivory all hydrated. They weren't horrible, but they hadn't been given any "love" for a while. Thanks again for the information! All my best, John

20th November 2013, 05:19 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,229	I don't see any need to clean/stain the ivory hilted one. I could stain the the other one for you John, but you might not get it back. Both are lovely BTW.

20th November 2013, 07:01 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,272	Hi John, two very nice keris you have there, agree with the others about the origin. But like David I don't see any need to stain both blades. The second blade you can try to stain it with hot vinegar but I doubt that there will be seen a similar pamor like by the first one. The blade is very very nice, just stunning. I have a Palembang keris with a similar handle like yours, at weekend I will post some pictures. But yours is much better. Regards, Detlef

20th November 2013, 09:44 PM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,048	To stain or not to stain? These days just about every keris we see, from anywhere, is stained. Buyers expect it. Try selling a keris that is unstained and you very quickly find out that the price a buyer is willing to pay drops through the floor. Collectors, especially collectors in the western world do want the pamor pattern to jump out of the blade and blind them. However. My personal opinion, and it is an opinion, not a widely held piece of knowledge, is that this staining thing is pretty recent and might be able to be attributed to human laziness, or perhaps more kindly, a new direction in taste. Last year I handled a lot of very old blades in European museums. None had any evidence of ever having been stained, the surfaces were smooth and polished, where a blade did have a pamor you needed to get it under angled light to see it. Similarly, I have seen and handled blades in the Surakarta Karaton store rooms. Many old blades bear no evidence of stain. From memory,there is an old blade that has never been in use , on display in the Karaton museum, and that has a Bali-like finish and a very light stain. Sometimes in carvings from the classical era we see weapons with rays of light emanating from them; I do not know if we can interpret this as a depiction of the blade having a spiritual quality, or if it is simply depiction of reflected light. Until the regeneration of interest in keris that has occurred since about 1980, if I bought a Peninsula or Bugis keris from outside point of origin, say from Britain, or USA or here in Australia, these keris were usually polished, or at least, they bore evidence of an unstained finish --- not always so, but usually. So, if I look at these keris that John has shown us, my inclination would be to do almost nothing. The ivory hilted one I would probably give a good soak with WD40 or some other penetrating oil, then gentle selective cleaning with picks, a hard toothbrush and maybe a little bit of steel wool wound around the end of a sate stick. Wash with mineral turps and toothbrush, dry with hairdryer, drench again with WD40, allow to dry, then apply a long term protective oil and store in plastic film. I find it advisable to use a 2X or 3X jeweler's loupe when doing this sort of work. The horn hilted one I'd probably use a small acid brush and just apply the acid to the corroded areas. I'd probably use hydrochloric and I would not leave it to work and walk away, I'd be watching it while it worked. Then I'd pick the loose corrosion out of the pits and repeat and repeat until I got down to hard metal. When the corrosion was 99% gone it would get a light cleaning with vinegar or citric acid, get rinsed well, WD40 over night and protective oil and plastic film. I would not stain this second blade. Not if it was going into my own collection I wouldn't. I've used a few "probably's" here. I've done that because if I handled these keris my opinions might change, but from what I can see the above is how I would proceed. Old, dry wood, ivory, bone, horn, all respond well to repeated application of hand rubbed baby oil. Naturally I would demount the blades before doing anything at all.