Hospitallier?

ingelred · 30th October 2005, 05:57 PM

Hello,

I do not know anything about this kind of smallsword but on one picture I read the ending "-thal" which indicates French Klingenthal manufacture, approximately late 18th to mid 19th century.

Best regards, Helge

fernando · 8th November 2005, 07:52 PM

Hi Yannis

PDEP are the latin initials for Pro Deo et Patria = For God and Fatherland, a motto much used by Orders and other forces.
In this link you will find all the various marking combinations, both maker's and blade inspector's, through all Klingenthal existance. With a bit of patience, you may be able to precise the date of your sword.

http://www.chez.com/klingenthal/

Kind regards

Mark · 9th November 2005, 12:09 AM

I did a little digging and found the following:

The pendant Maltese cross & crown below the winged thing on the handle very closely resembles the cross pendant worn by members of the Order in the 18th C. (maybe later, too, but the ones I saw represented in later paintings & photos were a little different). I found nothing indicating that the wing and lightening bolt symbol is associated with the Order, or the motto that fernando has provided. The coat of arms is most likely of the owner, as "16 quarters" of nobility are a requirement for membership -- i.e., as far back as your great-great grandparents. Didn't find that one particularly, or reference to this guy Paleologus. Notably, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John (etc.), which is the only Order of the four that can legitimately trace back to the medieval Knights Hospitaller that is still Catholic, does not have a priory in Greece, or even an embassy there. So, while it does appear that the sword is connected to the Knights of Malta, it would have to be with one of the other three Protestant branches. The John Watts connection would point to an English Order, but there are a bunch that claim some connection to the Knights Hospitallar. The one that is recognized as legitimate is the Venerable Order of St. John in Britain, which has been in exhistance since the Reformation.

30th October 2005, 05:57 PM	#1
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hello, I do not know anything about this kind of smallsword but on one picture I read the ending "-thal" which indicates French Klingenthal manufacture, approximately late 18th to mid 19th century. Best regards, Helge

8th November 2005, 07:52 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Yannis PDEP are the latin initials for Pro Deo et Patria = For God and Fatherland, a motto much used by Orders and other forces. In this link you will find all the various marking combinations, both maker's and blade inspector's, through all Klingenthal existance. With a bit of patience, you may be able to precise the date of your sword. http://www.chez.com/klingenthal/ Kind regards

9th November 2005, 12:09 AM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I did a little digging and found the following: The pendant Maltese cross & crown below the winged thing on the handle very closely resembles the cross pendant worn by members of the Order in the 18th C. (maybe later, too, but the ones I saw represented in later paintings & photos were a little different). I found nothing indicating that the wing and lightening bolt symbol is associated with the Order, or the motto that fernando has provided. The coat of arms is most likely of the owner, as "16 quarters" of nobility are a requirement for membership -- i.e., as far back as your great-great grandparents. Didn't find that one particularly, or reference to this guy Paleologus. Notably, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of St. John (etc.), which is the only Order of the four that can legitimately trace back to the medieval Knights Hospitaller that is still Catholic, does not have a priory in Greece, or even an embassy there. So, while it does appear that the sword is connected to the Knights of Malta, it would have to be with one of the other three Protestant branches. The John Watts connection would point to an English Order, but there are a bunch that claim some connection to the Knights Hospitallar. The one that is recognized as legitimate is the Venerable Order of St. John in Britain, which has been in exhistance since the Reformation.