cannon ball ID

thinreadline · 28th October 2013, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

During your browsing you may find these 'grenade launchers' or 'portable mortars'. They date from the 18th century, but i don't think they are the issue here.

.

No all your info is much appreciated , its an area I am very ignorant of , I am on safer ground with guns & swords etc !

M ELEY · 31st October 2013, 11:28 AM

Grenades vs mortar shells...this has always troubled me as well. Per Gilkerson, grenades were rarely smooth and often not even perfectly circular, because they didn't need to fit perfectly in the barrel. Mortar shells were more like solid shot in that they were supposed to be well formed and smooth, at least theoretically. Put one in the ground for a few centuries and it might not be so easy. I have what I think is a grenade in my collection, somewhat between the size bigger than a golf ball, but smaller than a tennis ball. It has a very small 1/4" hole and congealed powder inside. It isn't perfectly round, so I assumed grenade. Problem is, most resources claim grenades are larger than mine and with a bigger fuse hole. Hope to someday find a resource that shows other sizes besides what 'Boarders Away' lists.

Another controversy is with the brass grenade launchers. Some sources say that these rifle types were too short and too thin to be effective as launchers and that these guns were more likely for shooting off flares or fireworks.

kronckew · 31st October 2013, 06:42 PM

do a forum search here on 'mortar shell' and 'hand grenade'

these have been discussed here before. some interesting comments. some even might be mine

fernando · 31st October 2013, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

...Another controversy is with the brass grenade launchers. Some sources say that these rifle types were too short and too thin to be effective as launchers and that these guns were more likely for shooting off flares or fireworks.

Speaking of which ...
This example is in exhibition in the Portuguese Royal Palace of Vila Viçosa armour collection.
For what it is worth, the text says that it is a XVIII century Spanish (?) portable mortar, with a 73 m/m mouth. Cast in bronze, with a chamber of much narrower section, with a support hook in the lower part. Silex lock a la French. It shot 'case' with multiple projectiles. It was used in ships and parapets.

.

fernando · 31st October 2013, 09:05 PM

I tell you Mark that i concur with your doubts in this issue and find the definition you quote (Gilkerson) rather hard to digest ... though admiting that such person will be an expert in the matter and i, an ignarus

.
I don't see why the distinction between a grenade and a shell would be their outer perfection.
I know that hundreds of 5 1/2" howitzer grenades were shot during the French invasions (1807-1814). I am trying hard to locate the illustration of one of these projectiles. On the other hand, i don't see any reason for the example i have shown above not be one of such things. Most howitzers were mounted in fortification lines around Lisbon and i got this one over there.
Despite its corrosion due to age, it looks rather spherical ... and the fuse hole is pretty narrow.
I would quicker assimilate that the difference between grenades and shells and even between mortars and howitzer typology, resides in their time evolution and origin.

M ELEY · 1st November 2013, 03:57 AM

Yes, just one of the many frustrating and foggy areas of naval collecting. I like the bronze gun for the 'Tops'. It would have done well against boarders.
I don't necessarily question Mr. Gilkerson, but I feel that his study concentrated particularly on one country's type of grenado from a specific time period (Great Britiain, ca. 1600-1750-ish). As we've seen on this forum, there were all manner of exploding shells around made in different materials (clay, stone, etc). Perhaps in the future, someone will do a more definitive and specific volume on said lobbed bombards.
Here's mine from an old link. As I said, it's smaller than the examples Gilkerson mentions, bigger than golf ball but smaller than a tennis ball, approx 2 1/4" tall with a hole the size of a garden pea (at this small size, I imagine just enough room for a wick with no inner core, as some do-
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=hand+grenade

M ELEY · 1st November 2013, 04:02 AM

Thanks, Kronckew. Have looked them over again for reference, but you see my point with some of the smaller ordnance. Would a small sphere such as mine more likely be a grenade or a very small mortar shell? Did they make them this small??

adrian · 1st November 2013, 10:29 AM

The subject of hand grenades & small common shells is too broad to receive an accurate answer to, various countries altered what they used/did as they progressed & not every country did the same thing etc.

However if you ask about British practice there is quite a bit of information covering approx. 1750 onwards.

Some snippets:

Hand Grenades
Some mention has to be made of the hand grenade. The service grenade was a small hollow sphere of iron, with a single hole in it into which was fitted a beechwood fuse.
The sea service hand grenade was 31/2 inches diameter (actually 3.49 inches), and weighed 3 lb 11 ½ oz. The land service hand grenade was smaller: 2 3/4 inches diameter weighing 1 lb 13 1/2 OZ. These sizes were standard from at least 1755 , to 1790 . The fuse had a burning time of 9 seconds , and was tilled with a mixture of equal parts of mealed powder, saltpetre and sulphur. The hand grenade contained 4 oz. of powder. No record has been found of how useful or efficient they were, but the mere fact that 200 of them were carried in a 74-gun ship in 1765 suggests that plenty of employment was found for them. They were supplied in boxes, 20 grenades to a box; some degree of deterioration in the fuse was anticipated, as 20 were carried, fully fixed, as spares, which assumes a 10% unserviceability rate . As an aside, it is worth mentioning that the French Navy issued practice grenades, made of of papier-máché, but there is no trace of any such device in the Board of Ordnance papers of the British Navy. There was however a hand grenade made of glass, of which examples are in
the Rotunda Museum, Woolwich, but when, where and by whom they were used is uncertain.
Bron;
The Historie of English Sea Ordnance 1523-1875.
Volume I: 1523-1715. The Age of Evolution.
Caruana, Adrian B.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

circa 1865 info

Handgrenades.

There are two sizes of Handgrenades - 6 pr for Sea-Service, and 3 pr for Land Service. They are simply small shells - the thickness of metal being 1/7 of the diameter. The fuze hole is small; .677", not tapped or countersunk, but closed up with a Cork and bee’s wax. They are painted Black.
A well trained man can throw a Handgrenade from 28 to 32 yards. They are also used as pound shot for Mortars - as Pierrier charges - and are generally issued empty & loose.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The designation of 3 and 6 pr does not refer to their weight but rather to the size of their shell. It can be appreciated that a land service grenade may be transported quite some distance, before it is thrown at the enemy, hence the preference for a rather small shell. Whilst a naval grenade would, usually, be lobbed on to an enemy ship, and little effort comparatively was required with its transportation. A larger heavier grenade was preferable in these circumstances.

The usage of grenades as pound shot has been explained already, vide page 11. Traditionally the tallest and strongest men were selected and trained to carry and throw grenades. These troops were called grenadiers and were commonplace in the 18th century. By the end of that century this practice was virtually a thing of the past. Although grenadiers continued to be generally selected from the tallest and strongest of recruits they fought as regular line infantry and did not carry grenades. For the next century grenades played a fairly insignificant role until they became established as a significant infantry weapon in WWI. Through this entire period they had remained relatively unchanged and the “new” No. 15 Grenade introduced in 1915, or “cricket ball” grenade as they were known, was virtually the same device as had been in service for the previous 200 years, but with an improved fuze.
Various devices were introduced to increase the range to which grenades could be projected. These varied from flintlock “hand mortars” and flintlock carbine grenade cups of the mid to late 18th century to catapulting devices of several designs used in WWI. The Great War also saw rod grenades that loaded into rifle barrels which in turn were followed by the introduction of quite effective grenade cups attached to SMLE .303 rifles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Land Service 3pr Grenade. Diameters, max 2.778", min 2.738", mean 2.758". Mean metal thickness .379". Fuze hole dia top .6775", bottom .634". Average weight empty 1 lb 10 oz, filled 1 lb 11 oz 12 dr.

Sea Service 6pr Grenade. Diameters, max 3.496" , min 3.456" , mean 3.476". Mean metal thickness .485" . Fuze hole dia top .6775", bottom .634". Average weight empty 3 lb 9oz, filled 3 lb 13oz.

31st October 2013, 09:05 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Grenade definition I tell you Mark that i concur with your doubts in this issue and find the definition you quote (Gilkerson) rather hard to digest ... though admiting that such person will be an expert in the matter and i, an ignarus . I don't see why the distinction between a grenade and a shell would be their outer perfection. I know that hundreds of 5 1/2" howitzer grenades were shot during the French invasions (1807-1814). I am trying hard to locate the illustration of one of these projectiles. On the other hand, i don't see any reason for the example i have shown above not be one of such things. Most howitzers were mounted in fortification lines around Lisbon and i got this one over there. Despite its corrosion due to age, it looks rather spherical ... and the fuse hole is pretty narrow. I would quicker assimilate that the difference between grenades and shells and even between mortars and howitzer typology, resides in their time evolution and origin.

31st October 2013, 11:28 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Grenades vs mortar shells...this has always troubled me as well. Per Gilkerson, grenades were rarely smooth and often not even perfectly circular, because they didn't need to fit perfectly in the barrel. Mortar shells were more like solid shot in that they were supposed to be well formed and smooth, at least theoretically. Put one in the ground for a few centuries and it might not be so easy. I have what I think is a grenade in my collection, somewhat between the size bigger than a golf ball, but smaller than a tennis ball. It has a very small 1/4" hole and congealed powder inside. It isn't perfectly round, so I assumed grenade. Problem is, most resources claim grenades are larger than mine and with a bigger fuse hole. Hope to someday find a resource that shows other sizes besides what 'Boarders Away' lists. Another controversy is with the brass grenade launchers. Some sources say that these rifle types were too short and too thin to be effective as launchers and that these guns were more likely for shooting off flares or fireworks.

31st October 2013, 06:42 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	do a forum search here on 'mortar shell' and 'hand grenade' these have been discussed here before. some interesting comments. some even might be mine

1st November 2013, 03:57 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Yes, just one of the many frustrating and foggy areas of naval collecting. I like the bronze gun for the 'Tops'. It would have done well against boarders. I don't necessarily question Mr. Gilkerson, but I feel that his study concentrated particularly on one country's type of grenado from a specific time period (Great Britiain, ca. 1600-1750-ish). As we've seen on this forum, there were all manner of exploding shells around made in different materials (clay, stone, etc). Perhaps in the future, someone will do a more definitive and specific volume on said lobbed bombards. Here's mine from an old link. As I said, it's smaller than the examples Gilkerson mentions, bigger than golf ball but smaller than a tennis ball, approx 2 1/4" tall with a hole the size of a garden pea (at this small size, I imagine just enough room for a wick with no inner core, as some do- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=hand+grenade

1st November 2013, 04:02 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Thanks, Kronckew. Have looked them over again for reference, but you see my point with some of the smaller ordnance. Would a small sphere such as mine more likely be a grenade or a very small mortar shell? Did they make them this small??

1st November 2013, 10:29 AM	#8
adrian Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 130	The subject of hand grenades & small common shells is too broad to receive an accurate answer to, various countries altered what they used/did as they progressed & not every country did the same thing etc. However if you ask about British practice there is quite a bit of information covering approx. 1750 onwards. Some snippets: Hand Grenades Some mention has to be made of the hand grenade. The service grenade was a small hollow sphere of iron, with a single hole in it into which was fitted a beechwood fuse. The sea service hand grenade was 31/2 inches diameter (actually 3.49 inches), and weighed 3 lb 11 ½ oz. The land service hand grenade was smaller: 2 3/4 inches diameter weighing 1 lb 13 1/2 OZ. These sizes were standard from at least 1755 , to 1790 . The fuse had a burning time of 9 seconds , and was tilled with a mixture of equal parts of mealed powder, saltpetre and sulphur. The hand grenade contained 4 oz. of powder. No record has been found of how useful or efficient they were, but the mere fact that 200 of them were carried in a 74-gun ship in 1765 suggests that plenty of employment was found for them. They were supplied in boxes, 20 grenades to a box; some degree of deterioration in the fuse was anticipated, as 20 were carried, fully fixed, as spares, which assumes a 10% unserviceability rate . As an aside, it is worth mentioning that the French Navy issued practice grenades, made of of papier-máché, but there is no trace of any such device in the Board of Ordnance papers of the British Navy. There was however a hand grenade made of glass, of which examples are in the Rotunda Museum, Woolwich, but when, where and by whom they were used is uncertain. Bron; The Historie of English Sea Ordnance 1523-1875. Volume I: 1523-1715. The Age of Evolution. Caruana, Adrian B. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ circa 1865 info Handgrenades. There are two sizes of Handgrenades - 6 pr for Sea-Service, and 3 pr for Land Service. They are simply small shells - the thickness of metal being 1/7 of the diameter. The fuze hole is small; .677", not tapped or countersunk, but closed up with a Cork and bee’s wax. They are painted Black. A well trained man can throw a Handgrenade from 28 to 32 yards. They are also used as pound shot for Mortars - as Pierrier charges - and are generally issued empty & loose. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ The designation of 3 and 6 pr does not refer to their weight but rather to the size of their shell. It can be appreciated that a land service grenade may be transported quite some distance, before it is thrown at the enemy, hence the preference for a rather small shell. Whilst a naval grenade would, usually, be lobbed on to an enemy ship, and little effort comparatively was required with its transportation. A larger heavier grenade was preferable in these circumstances. The usage of grenades as pound shot has been explained already, vide page 11. Traditionally the tallest and strongest men were selected and trained to carry and throw grenades. These troops were called grenadiers and were commonplace in the 18th century. By the end of that century this practice was virtually a thing of the past. Although grenadiers continued to be generally selected from the tallest and strongest of recruits they fought as regular line infantry and did not carry grenades. For the next century grenades played a fairly insignificant role until they became established as a significant infantry weapon in WWI. Through this entire period they had remained relatively unchanged and the “new” No. 15 Grenade introduced in 1915, or “cricket ball” grenade as they were known, was virtually the same device as had been in service for the previous 200 years, but with an improved fuze. Various devices were introduced to increase the range to which grenades could be projected. These varied from flintlock “hand mortars” and flintlock carbine grenade cups of the mid to late 18th century to catapulting devices of several designs used in WWI. The Great War also saw rod grenades that loaded into rifle barrels which in turn were followed by the introduction of quite effective grenade cups attached to SMLE .303 rifles. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Land Service 3pr Grenade. Diameters, max 2.778", min 2.738", mean 2.758". Mean metal thickness .379". Fuze hole dia top .6775", bottom .634". Average weight empty 1 lb 10 oz, filled 1 lb 11 oz 12 dr. Sea Service 6pr Grenade. Diameters, max 3.496" , min 3.456" , mean 3.476". Mean metal thickness .485" . Fuze hole dia top .6775", bottom .634". Average weight empty 3 lb 9oz, filled 3 lb 13oz.