H4ow to count Luk???

[Jean]

IMO (which may be argued) these two blades can be interpreted as having an even number of luks (respectively 6 and 12 luks) according to the modern counting method. However they have an odd number of luks (respectively 5 and 11 luks) according to the Hindu method. This is the case everytime the last luk points to the back of the blade (wadidang) and not to the front (ganja). The first blade shown has been worn-out with age but the second one is a recently made piece.
Regards

[Sajen]

Hello Jean,

I count by the old blade 7 luk and by the recent one 13 luk.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Hello Detlef,
If you start counting the luks from the first concave one above the gandik I wonder how you can find 7 luks on the first blade? However for the other one I admit that the 13th luk can be interpreted although it is not clearly visible.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
If you start counting the luks from the first concave one above the gandik I wonder how you can find 7 luks on the first blade? However for the other one I admit that the 13th luk can be interpreted although it is not clearly visible.
Regards

I agree Jean. By the "contemporary" method of counting i would interpret the new keris as 13. It is true that it does not make a full swing to the front of the blade at the top, but it also doesn't point back. So given that even numbered keris are generally not acknowledged by ahli keris i would lean towards the odd alternative. Your old keris appears presently as 6, but could have easily have lost a luk through either time or intention.

[manteris1]

I only know one way, Alan gave me a sheet years ago and I use that...................jimmy

[David]

Originally Posted by manteris1

I only know one way, Alan gave me a sheet years ago and I use that...................jimmy

Yes Jimmy and that is the method that is most generally accepted and therefore IMO the one that holds the most weight amongst contemporary keris collectors today. But Alan put forth a different idea in his recently published treatise on pre-Islamic keris which, also IMO, make a whole lot of sense as to the original way to count luk when the keris was influenced mostly by Hindu culture. Neither myself, nor do i believe Alan, are suggesting that this possible original method should be applied today, but understanding it as a possibility hopefully increases our understanding of the origins of the keris itself. You can read that section of his treatise here:
http://kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE5.html

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

I agree Jean. Your old keris appears presently as 6, but could have easily have lost a luk through either time or intention.

Hello David,
I agree that the old blade most probably had 7 luk initially and was shortened due to wear.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Jean, to my eyes both the keris posted by you as examples of possibly even luk keris are not in even the slightest degree able to be interpreted as other than a 7 luk keris and 13 luk keris when using the current convention of count.

The form of the point on the 13 luk is very usual for this style of blade and the 7 luk blade is simply not able to be counted as anything other than 7.

I do have a Pengging blade that could be counted as an even luk blade, because the final luk takes the point back towards the back of the blade, and the blade is not eroded to the degree where we could plead that this has been caused by the passage of time. However, the current convention of count (CCC) demands that the count finish on the same side that it started, ie, the gandhik side or front of the blade, so even where you cannot see any clear turn back to the front of the blade you are compelled to add the additional non-existent wave.

In the most simple of terms:- if we follow the CCC it is impossible to produce a luk count that gives us an even number. Just can't be done.

Incidentally, how long is the 7 luk keris?

[rasdan]

G'day Alan,

Regarding your Pengging keris. Do you have any idea on why does the last luk was made in such a way?

If we assume that Jeans keris is not corroded badly, can we say that it have 5 luks if we count according to the Hindu counting method?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jean, to my eyes both the keris posted by you as examples of possibly even luk keris are not in even the slightest degree able to be interpreted as other than a 7 luk keris and 13 luk keris when using the current convention of count.
The form of the point on the 13 luk is very usual for this style of blade and the 7 luk blade is simply not able to be counted as anything other than 7.
In the most simple of terms:- if we follow the CCC it is impossible to produce a luk count that gives us an even number. Just can't be done.
Incidentally, how long is the 7 luk keris?

Hello Alan,
Thank you for your reply.
I acknowledge that according to the CCC the small blade should be interpreted and counted as 7 luks and although I do respect conventions and religions I am sorry that I can see and count only 6!
The blade is 28.5 cm long, it is a skeleton blade which probably had a normal lenght of about 35 cm originally. I have shown it alongwith another very old blade with 7 luks and a similar ganja of exactly the same size (7.6 cm long, probably a bit longer originally). In my view the short blade had probably 9 waves originally and not 7, what do tou think?
Best regards
Jean

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Detlef,
If you start counting the luks from the first concave one above the gandik I wonder how you can find 7 luks on the first blade? However for the other one I admit that the 13th luk can be interpreted although it is not clearly visible.
Regards

Hello Jean,

have learned that I have to start from the first concave above the gandik and have to end at the same side and this with an uneven figure. See picture. It seems to be an old and worn blade and I think the last luk is too worn that you still can see it.

Regards,

Detlef