floating melati?

Marcokeris · 8th October 2013, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yuuzan

Please don't go holiday in the Netherlands and tell people there they speak German

They might give you the evil eye!

Joking aside, German and Dutch are often mixed up but the Pamoratlas is written in Dutch.

I have a copied version of the book myself and the quality of the pictures is not that good. I always suspected this was due to the quality of the copies but it seems the source material's quality leaves something to be desired.

Sorry you are right is not German ...but if they give me the devil eye i surely will be very happy

max · 8th October 2013, 07:05 PM

I know that the pamor is also familiar by the name of Gebagan Agal. Djajasukatgo III (1861-1893) made such pamor for PB IX.

Sajen · 8th October 2013, 07:30 PM

There is another plublication from van Veenendaal I am aware of, "Krisgrepen en Scheden uit Bali en Lombok", in my opinion a very good booklet. I have had email contact once with him and it seems that he have a very good knowledge about the balinese culture. So far I know he was married with a woman from Indonesia which is sadly gone. And it is true that he is stays every year for month in Indonesia.

Richard Furrer · 8th October 2013, 10:08 PM

I would like copies of both his booklets of possible...whatever the language.

I can not name that Pamor, but I can tell you how it is forged.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2013, 12:22 AM

Thank you for that information Max.
I would greatly appreciate it if you would advise the source for your information, that is from what book, or person did you learn that the pamor motif shown by Sirek was made by Jayasukadgo III for PB IX.
If possible a picture of the pamor that was made by Jayasukadgo III would be equally appreciated.
Thank you.

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2013, 03:28 AM

Thank you Marco and Yuuzan for your information in respect of the Pamoratlas.

Henk · 9th October 2013, 11:03 AM

I had the pleasure to meet Mr. Van Veenendaal a few times personally. His collection is very impressive and he has a great knowledge about keris.
Mr. Van Veenendaal is a member of the welknown studygroup the keris founded by the late G.J.F.J. Tammens.

When i was a guest at Mr. Van Veenendaal he was busy wrighting these two works.
For the statement in this discussion, when you have an original copy of his work the pictures are good. It was published in a limited edition for a happy few. I know that copys where made that ended on auction sites.

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2013, 12:09 PM

Yuuzan

Considering its a very young pattern, could it be that it acquired a name in Bahasa Indonesia in order to appeal to more potential buyers?

I know this as a recent pamor, and I was told it was recent pamor by an mpu of the Karaton Susuhunan, but Max has told us that it was in fact made by an mpu of the Karaton Susuhunan prior to 1900.

This is the reason I would like to see a picture of what it was that Jayasukadgo III made.

So, at the moment we don't really know if this pamor is recent, or had been made a long time ago.

The name "Gebagan Agal" can be understood as "rough bunch", I think it is ngoko, not krama, and this does seem a rather peculiar name to be foisted onto a pamor made by a Karaton mpu.

But still --- stranger things have happened.

Generally speaking whenever we see a keris related name for pamor, or anything else, that is in Indonesian or Malay it indicates that we are looking at or talking about something that is recent, and not something from the past.

I doubt that the reason is because of market appeal, but rather because the people who coined the name were not familiar with either the Javanese language, or with tradition.

Jean · 9th October 2013, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

I had the pleasure to meet Mr. Van Veenendaal a few times personally. His collection is very impressive and he has a great knowledge about keris.
Mr. Van Veenendaal is a member of the welknown studygroup the keris founded by the late G.J.F.J. Tammens.

When i was a guest at Mr. Van Veenendaal he was busy wrighting these two works.
For the statement in this discussion, when you have an original copy of his work the pictures are good. It was published in a limited edition for a happy few. I know that copys where made that ended on auction sites.

I have a copy of these 2 booklets and find them very useful references in spite of the pics quality (especially the Pamoratlas) and the Dutch language barrier for me. Emile did a thorough work for documenting and classifying the various types of pamor patterns and Balinese hilts so he deserves our congratulations and thanks.

Regards

8th October 2013, 07:05 PM	#2
max Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 12	I know that the pamor is also familiar by the name of Gebagan Agal. Djajasukatgo III (1861-1893) made such pamor for PB IX.

8th October 2013, 07:30 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	There is another plublication from van Veenendaal I am aware of, "Krisgrepen en Scheden uit Bali en Lombok", in my opinion a very good booklet. I have had email contact once with him and it seems that he have a very good knowledge about the balinese culture. So far I know he was married with a woman from Indonesia which is sadly gone. And it is true that he is stays every year for month in Indonesia.

8th October 2013, 10:08 PM	#4
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	I would like copies of both his booklets of possible...whatever the language. I can not name that Pamor, but I can tell you how it is forged. Ric

9th October 2013, 12:22 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you for that information Max. I would greatly appreciate it if you would advise the source for your information, that is from what book, or person did you learn that the pamor motif shown by Sirek was made by Jayasukadgo III for PB IX. If possible a picture of the pamor that was made by Jayasukadgo III would be equally appreciated. Thank you.

9th October 2013, 03:28 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you Marco and Yuuzan for your information in respect of the Pamoratlas.

9th October 2013, 11:03 AM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I had the pleasure to meet Mr. Van Veenendaal a few times personally. His collection is very impressive and he has a great knowledge about keris. Mr. Van Veenendaal is a member of the welknown studygroup the keris founded by the late G.J.F.J. Tammens. When i was a guest at Mr. Van Veenendaal he was busy wrighting these two works. For the statement in this discussion, when you have an original copy of his work the pictures are good. It was published in a limited edition for a happy few. I know that copys where made that ended on auction sites.

9th October 2013, 12:09 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yuuzan Considering its a very young pattern, could it be that it acquired a name in Bahasa Indonesia in order to appeal to more potential buyers? I know this as a recent pamor, and I was told it was recent pamor by an mpu of the Karaton Susuhunan, but Max has told us that it was in fact made by an mpu of the Karaton Susuhunan prior to 1900. This is the reason I would like to see a picture of what it was that Jayasukadgo III made. So, at the moment we don't really know if this pamor is recent, or had been made a long time ago. The name "Gebagan Agal" can be understood as "rough bunch", I think it is ngoko, not krama, and this does seem a rather peculiar name to be foisted onto a pamor made by a Karaton mpu. But still --- stranger things have happened. Generally speaking whenever we see a keris related name for pamor, or anything else, that is in Indonesian or Malay it indicates that we are looking at or talking about something that is recent, and not something from the past. I doubt that the reason is because of market appeal, but rather because the people who coined the name were not familiar with either the Javanese language, or with tradition.