The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.



Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not. This is a 1744 design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes a few... mainly stamped are Islamic, Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... where's the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not as a brought on design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... Ive seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes... mainly stamped are Islamic Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... wheres the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades?...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.

You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !

Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?

The shape and design of the Omani Dancing Sword, however, owes nought in my opinion to European sword shape and a whole lot to the previous stiff Omani Battle Sword... which even has the same shield The Terrs... and the blade is razor sharp to both edges and the tip is round... not to mention its role in the Funoon.

The hilt known generally as The Omani Long Hilt in a flatish long conical form poses another question as to origin but again I see no European influence there but if anything perhaps African Mendingo style though it is not clear yet which came first; The Kattara Longhilt or The Omani Dancing Sword Longhilt. Since we have the Dynastic Swords birthdate at 1744 I'm certain an answer is close.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.

There's a lot of repetition on these threads meaning there's little point posting at the moment as there are several perspectives which are in complete opposition. I look forward to further discussion after you've had a chance to pursue your inquires with the museums local to you.

You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !

I'd suggested looking in European collections previously because of the issue of "freeze" meaning a weapon was removed and not changed for a specified period. Providing hard evidence for how the weapon was at differing periods. Hopefully you can find that locally.

Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?

It implies influence in the blades via exposure as do some of the aspects I've mentioned in the past. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure readers of the thread can and will make up their own minds.

All the best,
Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

There's a lot of repetition on these threads meaning there's little point posting at the moment as there are several perspectives which are in complete opposition. I look forward to further discussion after you've had a chance to pursue your inquires with the museums local to you.



I'd suggested looking in European collections previously because of the issue of "freeze" meaning a weapon was removed and not changed for a specified period. Providing hard evidence for how the weapon was at differing periods. Hopefully you can find that locally.



It implies influence in the blades via exposure as do some of the aspects I've mentioned in the past. We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm sure readers of the thread can and will make up their own minds.

All the best,
Iain

Salaams Iain, No doubt I shall get the confirming evidence from the National Museum at some future point. On reflection I have to say that you have chosen to weave into your post several quite extraordinary and strage pieces of logic for example in;

para 1... a peculiar link between apparent repetition and no point in posting which I cannot fathom...and coupled to inquiries at the museum?..I am unable to unravel that.

para 2... Freeze? Are you suggesting that the design of the Omani Dancing Sword has changed since its inception in 1744? No it hasn't. Do you imagine that there is a 1744 document waiting to be discovered perhaps next to the original dancing sword in some museum? No there isn't.

para 3...I am amazed that you think there is some odd linkage between blade marks locally applied and dancing sword design. There are some blade marks with stars on them ... does that imply they went to the moon?

Lastly your suggestion that readers will make up their minds and seemingly placed as The Sword of Damacles over my posts is just simply rediculous.. This forum, in hammering out the facts, expects disagreement and at times heated debate and generally over the hot anvil of discussion takes no heed of whether readers agree or not. This post is alive and kicking and the twists and turns encountered have no place in whether people agree or don't. If they don't agree the rules are simple; let them either do nothing or join the debate! The ink is free !!

It is our job (as I see it) to shine a light into the dark recesses of a bleak and murky history laden with lies and deceit, errors and misrepresentation and hopefully at the end of the day appear with something closer to the truth. If we had a motto I think those words would be echoed in it...not roll over and die , give up or just nod your head and agree.

This isn't a trick with a bowler hat and a white rabbit!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all Note to Forum..

I have just read an interesting article from J E Peterson ...see http://www.jepeterson.net/.../Oman_D...ociety_Norther... in which he expertly describes the quite diverse population in Muscat and perhaps points to sword manufacturing in the city..

Meanwhile here is an interesting couple of pictures showing two groups...I sketch of soldiers in 1840 in Muscat with weapons and a photograpg by Wilfred Thesiger in 1950 of Bin Gabaisha bin Kabina. I met the son of Bin Gabaisha the other day and he reports that his father is doing very well and still buying and selling camels!

The reason for including both pictures is to illustrate the similarity in the physique and hair of the two diverse ages... and to prove the warlike worthiness of both and thus to confirm the artist (Colm) in his portrayal of the men as accurate. It is known that Bin Gabaisha and Kabina were probably the fiercest bedu on the circuit more than 60 years ago and were true mercenaries, guides and friends to Thesiger.

What is significant about the sketch is ...straight dancing swords.. pushing the envelope for known swords of such description as far as 1840 and toward the benchmark date of 1744. It also illustrates the sword as unchanged.

These are Omani guard soldiers and carry the main weapon the abu futtila. So why do they have straight swords in their possession. The casual eye of the onlooker/artist would probably consider these as weapons but they are not. Like any soldier / officer today in the West there are those that are issued or own their own swords but carried only for the traditional parade ... for marching past the ruler / dignitary/ commander and for parade ground duties. When I say soldier I mean mounted cavalry ...although for infantry in the west the officers and certain high ranking senior NCO's also carry swords on parade... for the exact same reasons. Thus it was in 1840 and before, that Omani guards carried these swords since they would often be required to draw them in praise for the ruler and for pageantry duty.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim, your tone is a little strange. Perhaps you are taking this all a bit too personally for a friendly forum discussion.

para 1... a peculiar link between apparent repetition and no point in posting which I cannot fathom...and coupled to inquiries at the museum?..I am unable to unravel that.

There's nothing complex or peculiar here. There are several points of view that have been presented in this thread, there is a lot of repetition in the presentation of those views. I've posted my views at this time, I see no reason to do it constantly. Personally, I'll be interested to continue the discussion when there's something else on the table - such as pieces with provenance or some of the museum documentation you've mentioned in the past.

para 2... Freeze? Are you suggesting that the design of the Omani Dancing Sword has changed since its inception in 1744? No it hasn't. Do you imagine that there is a 1744 document waiting to be discovered perhaps next to the original dancing sword in some museum? No there isn't.

The way to establish what has or hasn't changed is via pieces with provenance, period artwork or illustrations. For example you recent post with illustrations dated to 1840 at least show the state of the hilt style at that date. That's a great piece of evidence with an associated date.

I am simply curious to see pieces with provenance and associated dates for the same reason. I have no idea what museum documentation you have access to, how can I until you present it.

para 3...I am amazed that you think there is some odd linkage between blade marks locally applied and dancing sword design. There are some blade marks with stars on them ... does that imply they went to the moon?

We've had serious, perhaps even fruitful exchanges about this in the past, it's a pity you don't seem to want to continue that judging by your last comment. However perhaps it was intended as humor in which case I can only say... I'm surprised you're amazed.

In brief, the use of copied European marks applied locally onto these blades illustrates a link between local blade production, exposure to European blades and the associated connotations of quality perceived in the latter. Similarly the use of triple fuller and single patterns of a length that corresponds broadly to similar European blades found elsewhere in large numbers at a similar time period is not something that I consider coincidence. Particularly when the primary sword form in use before the inception of this design by and large is flat without fullers.

Obviously this is something that we don't and probably won't agree on. A differing point of view...

Lastly your suggestion that readers will make up their minds and seemingly placed as The Sword of Damacles over my posts is just simply rediculous.. This forum, in hammering out the facts, expects disagreement and at times heated debate and generally over the hot anvil of discussion takes no heed of whether readers agree or not. This post is alive and kicking and the twists and turns encountered have no place in whether people agree or don't. If they don't agree the rules are simple; let them either do nothing or join the debate! The ink is free !!

Nothing has been placed over your head and I think it's a pity you've chosen to interpret a single phrase in this manner. My last post on this thread pointed out differing viewpoints had been presented. Everyone is free to assess what is written here and reach their own conclusion.

Some may choose to engage with your posted material, as I do on occasion, others may not.

That of course has no influence on the validity of the content you post - however a lack of response does not imply you are correct simply because nobody has bothered to post a rebuttal. As far as I'm concerned, the more participants the merrier.

There are parts of what you present that I find intriguing and raise interesting questions, parts where I disagree with your conclusions and parts where I appreciate the fascinating insight into the weapons of Oman you share. Your passion is to be commended.

All the best,
Iain