The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Yet without a single piece dated to this period (at least that I can recall popping up on these myriad threads about the type) it is rather difficult to say what it looked like no? Surely for a sword designed as an icon something from the 18th century attributed to a particular person should at least be around?

Frankly I can't recall exactly what the museum told you, perhaps you can re-link the post where you detailed that? It didn't come up on a search easily.



Perhaps this would be better phrased that you have identified blades of this nature being made recently. However, this does not categorically rule out older combinations of the same predating the timeline you've given (1970).

You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century.

Since we haven't seen a single 19th century piece with provenance of ANY style (at least none when I asked about it!) regarding the straight bladed form, this all seems rather hasty.

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

The notion that there is another straight stiff fighting version on a long hilt is without substance and may be confused by the influx of Red Sea variants cross mounted onto Omani Long Hilts... since 1970.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, Did you just say Hasty? The Museum statements confirm the sword as a dancing sword only. I cant recall where it is in the Myriad either but its not a problem as I have the documents here... and I am in the National Museum again this week on research. The Omani Dancing Sword was instigated by the Bussaidi Dynasty in or about 1744 at the beginning of the Dynasty and it is still used for the same thing today... Pageant march past mimic fighting and Traditions only... see funoon.

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.

(You've admitted yourself you haven't looked into the potential of European colonial bring backs from the late 19th through early 20th century). Can you tell me where I said that please??

I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.

I assume that the theory behind the 1744 dancing sword is now generally accepted and that insofar as the dancing sword is concerned it ... the straight flexible blade was never used in fighting... and only for Pageants.

However regarding the strange stiff sword which I have described as from the Red Sea regions there is some question? and so that when I am in the Museum I can have that verified and at the same time I can get some old blade shots.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

[Gavin Nugent]

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/r...ldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

An expanation of item two in Ricks presentation of rare swords would be interesting;

http://www.vikingsword.com/library/r...ldomwootz1.pdf

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Since you are asking me to explain I shall indeed respond to your request.

First this is not technically an Omani Kattara since it is straight thus it would be (if it were real) be an Omani Sayf (or Saif).

Secondly as it clearly states there is a certain amount of uncertainty by the author ..well placed in my opinion about this weapon...and since it appears to be a complete one off...no others appear to exist...what are we actually viewing here?

This is a non flexible (I assume) thick, pointed, wootz blade on an Omani long hilt. It is configured to look like an Omani 1744 design dancing sword. Does this ring a bell with you?

I have seen blades like this being lined up for workshop conversion in Muttrah... somewhere I have a photo of one similar...and I will dig it up. and another with the running wolf on it... same sort of blade.

Apply the well tested rule... Does it look right Wootz, Pointed, and thick down the spine without fullers ? and the main rule about dancing swords...does it bend ?...So we know its not an Omani Dancing Sword so what is it?

I suspect this is an imported blade (OF EXCELLENT PRIOR FIGHTING PROWESS) rehilted in Muscat after 1970.

So what do you think it is ?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

I think it is a sword


Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

I think it is a sword


Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons~ That it may well be but its not an Omani Sword... So what is it? Heres a clue... Its rehilted... imported and changed after 1970....wootz.... pointed....non flexible....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons~ That it may well be but its not an Omani Sword... So what is it? Heres a clue... Its rehilted... imported and changed after 1970....wootz.... pointed....non flexible....

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I am still waiting patiently to see any single modern stiff bladed sword from the souks that show the age patina, quality of style, quality of detail and construction methods of swords from antiquity, one that is actually there now that you can bring forth to the table for minute examination and criticism... Thus far I am only reading conjecture and speculation.

About the sword in question, these are rather bold statements considering the sword has not been first hand examined by yourself and others in a controlled enviroment. Again, conjecture and speculation are all that your comments are based on

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Whatever documentation you have - as time allows it would be interesting to see. I assume it would require some translation. But we have a few Arabic speaking members, so perhaps you could scan and share originals.




I was paraphrasing, see post #72 of yours, the jist being your focus is on research conducted within Oman.




It's an interesting theory, I'm not involved enough around these particular weapons to judge it as a whole. It's not my field, still I enjoy occasionally commenting on these threads. Personally I think there's still some logical gaps missing within it which I've mentioned before, but just in case the museum visit can answer a few of them, off the top of my head...

1. A reason why the "dance sword" happens to use blade forms that closely mirror the proportion and design (fullers and geometry) of European blades.

2. As above but goes for blade marks.

These really are two points I've never felt there was a satisfactory answer for in your theory, suddenly there's a shift from a fighting weapon that happens to have wider, shorter, flat blades, to a dance only item that somehow manages to have an almost identical form and set of features to European blades seen elsewhere in the region...

All the best,
Iain

Salaams Iain ~ Last point first... but thank you for your input and I have a clear mandate ahead to really try to access the Museums data banks to verify the points I have already made and which is generally proven in their record at the National Archives and in documentation I already hold. Regarding the sudden shift from fighting weapon to dance item...Actually there was no sudden shift in my perception .. but what I did was to split the two weapons onto separate threads since they are of very different concepts and make up... though cleverly linked in that the two are sharp on both sides and round tipped and the Terrs Shield was given to both weapons. Much of the background is on Kattara for Comments but I felt each sword needed its own space. There was no sudden shift at the time it changed in Oman...The shift happened in 1744..when the dancing sword materialised. It can be thought of as The Bussaidi Dynasty Sword. You will see that I have compared the two swords and it is plausible that the sharp two edged weapon with the round tip style was consulted and transfered to the dancing sword along with the Terrs Shield...

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Your next point about likeness to European sword style intrigues me...I mean what is a sword... Its a long knife...etc etc how many variations are there on the basic form? This is not, however, a copy of a European sword nor is it an imported dancing blade from Europe but is a product of local manufacture. The odd thing about the dancing blade is its flexibility... It bends nearly double easily. Its got a flat spatulate round tip. It has one or three fullers of varying length some the entire length of the sword. Its got a weird hilt almost more Japanese looking than European...(though likely to have Mandingo influence) Non of the blade marks are done in Europe... all the ones I've ever seen were done here and are Islamic, British Raj, Persian, or very rough copies of the wolf mark...locally applied.. The Old Omani Battle Sword wasn't taken from a European style... but it looks similar though you could argue that the Omanis copied the Abbasiid and the Abbasiid took their design from the Greek etc etc ...what makes you think this is a European design ? because it looks like it?...They (the dancing Swords) don't handle like European Swords. In fact to get a feel for balance they have to be practiced with using the Terrs Shield ... It really is a remarkably different feeling.

Why was it not simply an extended flexible version of the Old Omani Battle Sword on a long hilt?

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.

Lastly I see you quote of something I didnt say ... and out of context ... No I certainly didn't say that Iain...but to close I will attempt to get a reasonable Museum document covering what I have already reported.

Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I can't make things much clearer, if the extended length, fullering and introduction of blade markings on the "dance sword" doesn't raise some questions for you then there's really not much to discuss here... If you think all this came about without outside influence from a sword that looks quite dissimilar... then I really see no point in taking this further.



Mentioning the jist of a previous post of yours on the same thread regarding the exact same topic (pieces with provenance) is hardly out of context. You and I have managed to have friendly exchanges in the past, I see no reason for that to change.

The question remains then, have you pursue the provenance of pieces held within European museum collections?

Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not. This is a 1744 design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... I've seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes a few... mainly stamped are Islamic, Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... where's the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Of course I have not persued the Omani Dancing Sword in European collections why on eaqrth would I do a thing like that... I'm in Oman researching it. The dancing sword isnt holding some hidden European clue... Its an Omani invention... if it was Belgian or French believe me I would be the first to say so...but its clearly not as a brought on design encompassing some factors of the Old Omani Battle Sword and the whims of whoever finally decided its finished form... I don't think a European sword has been near the design of this sword. It's completely different. Why are you hung up on a European design... Its Omani...

This is not the first time you have spoken about European blade marks on these swords... Ive seen hundreds and hundreds of these swords...no European blade marks ...rough copies yes... mainly stamped are Islamic Persian and British Raj India marks and a few rough wolf marks clearly locally done... wheres the link in that...?

Might you be trying to resurect that European blades as having been imported for Omani Dancing Sword Blades?...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Well I figured you'd be interested in pieces with provenance... I've asked about it multiple times now in this thread, not one answer. I guess that says all that needs to be said.

I'll have one last shot at this before I give up on this thread completely.

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Salaams Iain~ You may, as you wish, and at any time give up... that is none of my business... do what you will, however, I'm not giving up.

You have asked me several times about this European collections situation and looking back I think I have indicated my position and as a researcher here in Oman on the subject of the Omani Dancing Sword. Its an Omani Sword but certainly if I could I would examine European collections pieces. I live on the border of the UAE and OMAN ... It's a long way to Europe and I have, thus, no access to European collections. However, since this is the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword am I not reasonable in searching for details here? It is after all The Omani National Sword !

Your question about European mark is placed here in red;

Why would European style wolf marks be copied in Oman onto a dance sword if the design and legacy owe nothing to European blades?

Do you think that a couple of Omani Dancing Swords with copies of European style Passau Wolf marks indicates some sort of design transference of that sword from European to Omani culture?

Personally; I don't think so at all.

What I think is that blade marks on Omani dancing swords come in many shapes and forms all copied and or stamped/chiselled here... from Indian British Raj, Persian Lion and Sword, wolf marks, talismanic squares, various geometric shapes, stars, to straight applied Islamic marks in Arabic e.g.God Is Great etc etc.

Why do I think they struck the odd blade with wolf marks? No doubt because they admired the mark perhaps of quaility in blades and for quite the same reason they struck talismanic squares on some blades due to superstition/ power to the blade/good luck/protection ... It is a fact that the wolf appears in Talismanic belief here (the abu futtila is often seen with wolf skin applied to the butt) so it could be simply that. I can't see how that implies a transfer in sword design. I have seen wolf marks on the Old Omani Battle Sword but I don't think that implies a European design in that item does it?

The shape and design of the Omani Dancing Sword, however, owes nought in my opinion to European sword shape and a whole lot to the previous stiff Omani Battle Sword... which even has the same shield The Terrs... and the blade is razor sharp to both edges and the tip is round... not to mention its role in the Funoon.

The hilt known generally as The Omani Long Hilt in a flatish long conical form poses another question as to origin but again I see no European influence there but if anything perhaps African Mendingo style though it is not clear yet which came first; The Kattara Longhilt or The Omani Dancing Sword Longhilt. Since we have the Dynastic Swords birthdate at 1744 I'm certain an answer is close.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.