The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Gavin Nugent]

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

I have no idea.. but I think you are arriving at the finished product in the wrong way.
1. Blade arrives in souk Muscat circa 1970 (not before as there werent any tourists to speak of before that)
2. Souk shop transfers blade to workshops.
Blade is fitted up tang extended and long hilt fitted silvered up etc.
3. Scabbard is tooled up to suit... including as you point out quite excellent furniture. Page 454 of Richardson and Dorr has metalwork such as yours you showed me on e mail..
What you now have is a non flexible Red Sea Blade on an Omani Long Handle heavily camouflaged and looking every inch an Omani Sword which it is not. Sold to a Tourist... and thus can turn up worldwide in this very confusing guise.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

With respect, and hence my invitation,

A first hand and even scientific analysis of the sword we now discuss will reveal to you that this is now a 43year old souk manufactured sword nor is the delicate string worked leather scabbard....

They do exisit and it is worth the effort to explore the type in detail as they are in my opinion valid and I have ideas as to how and why they are in the world but first the opinion that they do not exist must be passed and explored further to comfirm this for you.

I must also point out, not specific to these swords or the souks spoken of or any other Oman sword type but tang extension has been common for hundereds of years and likely longer throughout Syria and other surronding countries just as base steel tangs and forte's were extended to wootz blades.

Gavin

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?


If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...

Tang extensions... On Omani longhilts its different... The pommel is part of the tang... On non pommel swords the tang has to be extended and a pommel welded on... then the sword can be hilted like a long Omani hilt... not before.

An example of an extended tang is on file here where you can see an Ethiopian blade fitted with an extended tang and pommel and awaiting its Omani hilt to be fitted in Muscat at Muttrah where they've been doing this for decades ! This blade has come up the same route as yours.. Germany- Ethiopia - Yemen/ Sanaa) -Muscat -Tourist -Worldwide -

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments see post 241.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

I dont understand your first paragraph ?

Ibrahiim,

The paragraph is indicative that if you were here with me examining this sword, in a controlled enviroment you would be convinced to understand it better than your dismissal of it for what it is that you claim from afar.

Equally, if it was put through stringent scientific examination at both superfical level and through scientific disassembly of the sword, it too would convince you of the sword as being of antiquity.

Apart from, and keeping this comment specific to this sword we discuss, hot the type, I have not had you present a comparable example to support your claims, only crude all steel examples and hearsay. Equally for me here, now only having this one example in my hands, I will engage the collection of others as they come to hand to better support the type I suggest.

Gavin

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons,

If you have an idea as to how these arrived then lets hear it ! The hot anvil of Forum discussion awaits your findings...

One bridge at a time friend, one bridge at a time.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Whilst we are waiting for that I should remind Forum of what I mean by Mimic Fighting and March Past using the The Straight Dancing Sword; The Flexible sword invented for the Bussaidi Dynasty in 1744 and still in power thus the sword is still used in a declaration of support in all the related pageants. The March Past by tribal infantry and the Mimic Fight are shown below;see also #38.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.

Hi Stu,

As far as the discussion goes, we are at loggerheads as noted. Points have been addressed but with disbelief which is part and parcel of working through things.
If time permits I will seek out provenanced examples and advise further, maybe someone with more spare time can also do so.

Other than that, without opening another can of worms you may have to request a specific point not yet answered, I may have missed one.

I would also like to add, the black and white image above;
The gent crouching embraces a sword of fighting form with a tip not seen on dance swords...I too note the buckler has some nasty cuts out of it...surely not from a dance sword dance which further leads me to suspect and suspect only that he must own two or more swords by all accounts noted by Ibrahiim, especially if each sword has its specific use, a straight one for dance a curved one for fighting and if lucky a straight one for fighting, which begs another question to be asked, did by this measure, every man able to fight, carry two or more swords when away from his home in the century past, a dance sword, a battle sword and a curved sword...seems out of place, I would suggest, on a pilgrimage, only one sword would be carried, likely a long handled fighting type being of preference and that it was used for both dance and protection/fighting(speculation but plausible).
I might too add that these fighting swords of a straight type are more than meets the eye at first glace, much like Iain's swords when viewed closely, they are straight but one way in the hand has straight sword weight and feel, turn the swords 180deg in the hands and they have a sabre like weight distribution. This is an aspect seen in many straight double edged swords throughout time.

Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Ibrahiim..........Are you planning on addressing the issue raised by Gavin?
I for one would be interested to see where this goes...........and I am sure there are others who would be interested also.

Salaams khanjar 1... As you well know... I have addressed the issue many times, however, as noted there is a log jam.

Of the many thousands of rehilted non Omani blades on Omani long hilts sold via Muscat I am certain there are quite a few foreign people holding made up swords of the style I have outlined in their collections. The rule is simple;

Straight, not flexible on a long Omani Hilt= Not an Omani Dancing Sword= Fake.

SwordsAntiqueWeapons ..Your comment about the tip of the sword is because the sword is moving, twisting, flexing and displayed as more pointed than usual but this is only an optical illusion ...see also the optical effect on the parade past below. It is a standard Omani, straight, flat, spatulate, flexible, round tipped, dancing sword.

Your remaining paragraph covers purely so far as I can see conjecture on the whyfors of cuts in the Terrs shield and sumations on pilgrimage carriage of sword/swords... none of which has a bearing on this case and which are simply unproven guesses. Most terrs have cuts in them caused by the mimic fight morelikely..and since after all the blades are very sharp. In the case of a Terrs having actually been used in combat with the Omani Battle Sword I can imagine cuts in the shield in that function. You will recall the reason why the Terrs was awarded/ordered to be included in the pageants with the 1744 dancer?

Unless you are about to re write Omani Sword History please be advised that there is no evidence of stiff fighting blades on Omani Dancing swords... the vast number of rehilted tourist swords , has however, created its own weather pattern. The source has been identified as has the rehilting region (Muttrah) and the date from about and after 1970 til now viz;

Germany/Europe>Ethiopia>Yemen/Saudia>Sanaa>Salalah/Muscat>Muttrah Souk>World.

The dancing sword has been carried by tribal infantry in Oman since 1744 but only for the dedication ... the parade ... and march past in front of the Bussaidi Ruler; The straight dancing sword could well be described as the Bussaidi Dynastic Sword and I can show a sketch of it carried by tribal infantry in the 19th C... That doesn't make it a fighting weapon. I have to say however that it certainly adds fog to the situation..!! It was, however, a dancing sword and is still used today only for that and the pageants.

I think the biggest mistake is in classing the sword as a fighting weapon because it feels, looks and appears to be so. This has fooled visitors and collectors alike for a very long time. The fact that it can apparently chop an arm off, cut a man in half, or that the warriors weilding it look war-like, vicious , deadly ...etc etc is purely coincidental..they probably are but not with that sword.

Now firstly to be absolutely clear and specific and we are not talking about any other combination such as battle swords... The long Omani flexible dancing Sword on the long hilt, called The Sayf or Saif is purely for pageants and dancing and I think that is agreed...

Secondly what seems to be questionable is a stiff bladed fighting version on the same long hilt. This is not the case. Any stiff variants are relatively recently cross hilted as detailed by me as not genuine.

( Owners of the fake version with the stiff blade may pontificate untill they are blue in the face but that will never change the scenario..If it doesn't flex ... if its stiff ... its not an Omani dancing sword... and there is no other category to slot it into since by definition its a 1970 (from and to-date) fake. A Tourist sword.

I have seen these stiff bladed swords and some are in excellent disguise and clearly went for a considerable sum .. They are accompanied by well made Omani Scabbards and occasionally superb furniture..I have never seen one in the ownership of a local... they all seem to be externally owned... why? Perhaps because they all traversed the souk system which created them and were outed to foreign ownership from about 1970 (thus they are tourist swords) and since Omani men don't use them... because... the blades don't flex.

Anyone conducting research into these stiff blades should keep that in mind.


Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

I don't really feel like diving into all this again, but I'd be curious Ibrahiim, if you've come across a provenanced 19th century, or earlier, dance version (i.e. super flexi blade). By provenance I mean a sword that has not been rehilted or tampered with and has a firm, documented collection date. in the 1800s or earlier.

I think it would be interesting to see.

[Gavin Nugent]

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

With respect to your updated post from which I drew my quote of yours.

With consideration to a number of things mentioned but the absence of examples collected by these authors, they are but merely telling a story in their journals, not studying specifics of weapons nor collecting them.

This sword of fighting type we discuss between us for example, is certainly a thin sword to coin the phrase presented above by one author...very thin compared to English regulation swords for sure and thin in many respects to Indian swords of the time and period that he was exposed to but a strong well forged fighting type.

As I have mentioned, I have no denial that these swords were used in dance, that is not being questioned, but they did certainly carry heavier fighting blades in this style of sword.


Gavin

Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams, SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~ Your viewpoint, whilst respected, is at loggerheads with mine. Last paragraph first.. There is no evidence of another type of Omani sword with a non flexible blade in dancing guise. Other than the rehilts I have detailed there is no Omani type that fits the description except of course, Tourist Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Loggerheads it is Ibrahiim...but there is evidence not being embraced...the one I hold and others I have handled...of the poor crude unrefined tourist types you mention, I have never gone out of my way to obtain one.

Gavin