Moro Kris

[Bill]

Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

[zelbone]

I'm with Kai....looks Maranao to me.

[MABAGANI]

If you've never found a provenanced kris of the Bugis, why is your opinion that it originated with the Bugis. There is overwhelming examples of kris originating throughout the Moro regions of Mindanao and Sulu. Leaf, you repeatedly make it appear as if each Malay or Indonesian group could not have adapted their own form when keris diaspora occurred. The kris is just the adapted form used in Mindanao and Sulu, so why do you continue denying them their cultural place as if you have some personal prejudice, imho?

Originally Posted by Bill

Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

[Rick]

I'd vote for Maranao too .

Rasdan , have you contacted Adni about having a new handle made for this piece ; surely he must know some craftsmen who are capable of doing this work .

[Battara]

Or I can do it!

[MABAGANI]

btw I'd call it a recent copy of a Maranao type for the strange feeling that the cutting edge does not appear hardened as a real Moro kris sword and the form seems off, I could be wrong? Rasdan, can you verify that the edge holds a sharp hardened edge?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Bill

Kai, I have never found any provenanced kris of the Bugis. There is the accounts of David Woodard, who was shipwrecked for 2.5 years on Celebes in the late 18C. There is also vague Portuguese & English accounts. E. Banks has given his opinion that the kris was once made in Brunei, but he falls short of any proof and his research was by interview of locals in the late 1930's. Banks did print plates of several kris that of interest; the elephant is quite simular in all six, half have the diminutive kakatua that are simular to the Indo/Malay sundang, & 3 appear to have the raised center etch. I would think there is documented or provenanced Riau & Malay Sundang, but that is only speculation. I have read quite a bit on the early PI groups & Celebes groups and fall short of any proof of the origin of the kris, it is merely my opinion that the kris originated with the Bugis.

Bill, Thanks for clearing this up that this is just your unsubstantiated opinion. I have yet to read the Woodward account. Does he describe the Bugis swords he encountered in enough detail to be sure they were carrying kris blades? Are they described as straight, wavy or both? Any description of the trunk area, gangya or any other blade details?

[rasdan]

Hi Rick and Battarra,

Thank you very much for the advice and offer. I really appreciate it I thought i'll first try finding an old hilt for this keris. If that did'nt work out, i'll make a new one for it.

Hi Mabagani,

I just received the keris this morning. Its kinda different from the pics. To my relief the crack is not as huge and deep as in the pictures. Phew.. In the pictures it seems that it is made of some sort of "dry" and light metal but actually it is dense and the edges are really sharp (Its kinda heavy for its size too). Anyway, im not sure how to really tell if its hardened or not, but judging from the steel edge color, i think it is.

For the age, well.. i sure think its an old piece, not because it is mine but because of the condition of the tang. I guess if a person would wanna age a blade they'll age the entire blade and tang (or in some cases, only the blade) but, in this case, the blade is quite well preserved but the tang is really corroded by rust. Of course theres always a possibility of the forger also thinks this way and purposely age the tang, but i think it is not likely in the case due to the uneveness of the corrosion pattern.



Ok, just some thought. I REALLY hope this wont raise any controversy. I come in peace.. and I just would like to disscuss. hehe..

(Unfortunately i did'nt get that Cato's book on eBay recently.. I'm a bit too late) Is it possibble that the keris is introduced by the Bugis to Philiphines? I come across this website sometime ago and noticed that the sword used in the installation ceremony in the Gowa kingdom in South Sulawesi is a Sundang. You can find it in the glossary part in this page:

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/Indonesia/gowa.htm

This makes me think, the bugis priced sundang's quite highly if it is used in the installation ceremony, not just merely a weapon. A weapon appreciated like that most probably originated from their own culture. Perhaps it is the Bugis that introduced the sundang to Philiphines. Like Leaf said, they dispersed throughout the archipelago in late 17th C and surely brought their weapon with them.

Is it possibble that the Moro adopted the bugis sundang as their weapon in the 18thC? Probably this is the reason that we normaly see many of the 18thC and later kerises (The moros used it extensively) and there's almost no older specimen (It is reserved for a higher statused Bugis). It is a difference and cross-over of culters between 2 ethnic groups.

Perhaps this weapon then evolved with newer features (maybe) the baca-baca and even the Bugis loved them and finally adopted the design and again spreading it around the archipelago.

Again, there are very little specimen of the Bugis/Malay sundang in the Malay region of Riau and the Peninsula. This, again, shows that the sundang is reserved for a higher statused individual according to the Bugis early tradition. (My hypothesis only) There are examples of sundangs owned by the sultan of Perak and Terengganu which has a high Moro taste. The pictures are attached below.

BUT, on second thought, if the above is true, we must had seen at least 2-3 specimens of older kerises. But, the oldest sundang, i suppose, is made around second half of 18thC (Is it?). It seems that there is no sign of earlier kerises of this type. Is it because of the bugis themselves adopting the moro design in the later period or is it besause it is actually born in the 18thC?

It is really an interesting topic indeed, but the truth will remain a mystery..

Best regards,
Rasdan

p/s: In the above keris and sundang have the same meaning i.e the moro keris as normally reffered to in this forum. (If we accept them as the same weapon)

[rasdan]

Hi Nechesh,

Just to add a bit. Woodard's description of weapons in South Sulawesi is very general. Theres no description ganya, trunk what so ever. I'd guess he is too busy trying to figure out how to escape.

Regards,
Rasdan

[kai]

Originally Posted by rasdan

Anyway, im not sure how to really tell if its hardened or not, but judging from the steel edge color, i think it is.

Rasdan, do you know how the blade was treated/etched?

For the age, well.. i sure think its an old piece, not because it is mine but because of the condition of the tang.

I also think this blade is antique (e. g. there's some wear at the gangya's file work and considerable corrosion at the tip possibly from repeated etchings by a Malay owner). I don't see a reason to place it earlier than 2nd half of 19th c though.

(Unfortunately i did'nt get that Cato's book on eBay recently..

Go for one of the next copies...

Is it possibble that the keris is introduced by the Bugis to Philiphines?

The Moro and Bugis seemed to have had close ties, even beyond those given by their roles as dominant sea traders. But there were also close with several sultanates on Borneo. And there's still the possibility that the Moro ancestors brought keris with them when colonizing the archipelago.

I come across this website sometime ago and noticed that the sword used in the installation ceremony in the Gowa kingdom in South Sulawesi is a Sundang.

AFAIK, a Sundang doesn't necessarily refer to a Keris Sundang aka Kris but could be some other kind of (straight) sword. This also limits the interpretation of Woodwards account if there is no other supporting evidence. Is there an indigenous word for Keris Sundang in Buginese/Makassarese?

This makes me think, the bugis priced sundang's quite highly if it is used in the installation ceremony, not just merely a weapon. A weapon appreciated like that most probably originated from their own culture.

Quite a few royal heirlooms seem to have originated from outside the respective kingdoms if I recall correctly.

Perhaps it is the Bugis that introduced the sundang to Philiphines. Like Leaf said, they dispersed throughout the archipelago in late 17th C and surely brought their weapon with them.

This might be one of the factors for its distribution over the Riau region and other northern Malay areas. However, trade (which demonstrably included blades) might be a more pervasive (and much older) power in dispersing weapons of status. So, any provenanced, old non-Moro pieces available for public view?

Is it possibble that the Moro adopted the bugis sundang as their weapon in the 18thC?

IIRC, Mabagani thinks that the evolution of the Kris in Moroland predates the Bugis diaspora. Could you please elaborate?

There are examples of sundangs owned by the sultan of Perak and Terengganu which has a high Moro taste. The pictures are attached below.

Thanks, Rasdan! Is there additional info which would allow to date these pieces better than by reign period (most conservative assumption)?

Regards,
Kai

[MABAGANI]

If the sword were secure to a hilt, you could try a test cuts, it should slice cleanly like a cutting sword if its sharp and holds an edge.
I'm going to let the evolution thing rest again, there are plenty of early influences culturally and within the variations of keris themselves to say the kris could have come from different origins but to pinpoint one without any decent examples and repeating an unfounded theory doesn't hold well. Early kris from Mindanao and Sulu have regional markers that held for centuries even to the present day where one can state the territory they were made.

[rasdan]

Hi all,

I'm not sure how it is treated, but i guess with the ordinary sour coconut water. I'm afraid the pctures are the only info i have at the moment. I'll try searching in aome other literature. As for the origin etc, i metioned earlier that i lack knowledge of this weapon and my statement above is more a question than a theory. I have no idea if the theory has been discussed previously..hmm.. I probably had missed it. Btw, I think i'll give a test after this to determine if it is tempered or not. Thanks for the opinion and advice guys..

Regards,
Rasdan

[Battara]

Say, Rasdan, where did the scans come from?