The “ regulation Khyber Knife” in the Afghani Army at end of the 19th – beginning of

[Richard G]

I have, on occasion, seen the nucklebow hilted short sabre, or very similar, described as Persian and even Turkish. Were these misattributions of a type produced only in Afghanistan? or were they also produced and used in other armies of the region?
Best wishes
Richard

[mahratt]

Dear Richard

Descriptions of many of these items and they are often different. My opinion is that the diversity of descriptions - from ignorance (I apologize for the harshness of my words)..
It is understood that the items with afghan stamps - are made and used in Afghanistan. Although, I'm sure that many of these items to other countries as trophies.

It would be easier to talk, discussing a specific item.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

I have, on occasion, seen the nucklebow hilted short sabre, or very similar, described as Persian and even Turkish. Were these misattributions of a type produced only in Afghanistan? or were they also produced and used in other armies of the region?
Best wishes
Richard

Richard, when these first entered the collectibles market (it seems around 20 years ago...I think I got my example around 1999), a few of them appeared in several mail order catalogs with some very odd attributions. I think one was captioned as a 'Greek cutlass'!
Over following years it seems one caption claimed one of these was Spanish and the stamp was of the 'pillars of Hercules'!

These often bizarre attributions have often been seen on numerous ethnographic weapons over the years, and many of them have been properly identified here on these pages, which is in essence why we are here These discussions have all been fascinating, and Dmitry's work here is a perfect example of such outstanding arms study.
As far asI have known, these 'regulation' type swords were only ever produced for use in Afghanistan for use in thier army.

[Oriental-Arms]

I Know Dima for quite some time and I am familiar with his passion for Afghan blades. Hence I am not surprised it resulted in this thorough article. Congratulation Dima. I salute you.

[Richard G]

Thank you Mahratt and Jim,
I agree, as no examples of the short sabre have surfaced that can definitely be attributed to jurisdictions other than Afghanistan, it seems sensible to regard them all as Afghan; and as Mahratt postulates, derived from the Khyber knife.
However I have another question. Who were these issued to? They are obviously too short for cavalry and presumably already obsolete for regular infantry use by the end of the 19th century. In Europe or India it would be assumed they were for artillery or police or similar paramilitaries that used a cutlass rather than a sword.
Regards
Richard

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Thank you Mahratt and Jim,
I agree, as no examples of the short sabre have surfaced that can definitely be attributed to jurisdictions other than Afghanistan, it seems sensible to regard them all as Afghan; and as Mahratt postulates, derived from the Khyber knife.
However I have another question. Who were these issued to? They are obviously too short for cavalry and presumably already obsolete for regular infantry use by the end of the 19th century. In Europe or India it would be assumed they were for artillery or police or similar paramilitaries that used a cutlass rather than a sword.
Regards
Richard

Dear Richard!

I apologize for my bad English.

You asked a good question! Very many people consider these items made ​​for the gunners. But I have a different opinion. Khyber traditional weapons were Afghans, so I am sure that these items were of different soldiers. By the way, not only the soldiers.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Thank you Mahratt and Jim,
I agree, as no examples of the short sabre have surfaced that can definitely be attributed to jurisdictions other than Afghanistan, it seems sensible to regard them all as Afghan; and as Mahratt postulates, derived from the Khyber knife.
However I have another question. Who were these issued to? They are obviously too short for cavalry and presumably already obsolete for regular infantry use by the end of the 19th century. In Europe or India it would be assumed they were for artillery or police or similar paramilitaries that used a cutlass rather than a sword.
Regards
Richard

Excellent observations Richard, and it truly is a bit of a mystery who exactly used these stoutly bladed short swords (it seems the blades average about 26 " in length). As you well note these are far too short for cavalry and the infantry as usual would not carry swords.

It seems that most of the structured military developed with Emir Abdul Rahman Khan in 1880, and as he was following European plans with British support it does seem that the incorporation of tribal levys and paramilitary units certainly were emplaced. The great illustration Dmitry posted in the previous post clearly shows a uniformed individual with traditional khyber.

When I acquired one of these 'regulation' military swords many years ago, the story with it was that it was apparantly used by royal bodyguards or some special unit in such capacity. It would seem quite possible that might be an explanation for the shorter heavy blades (indeed often paralleling a 'cutlass' in its close quarters purpose).

My question is just when were these hilts introduced? and where produced?
We know that Saoud Shah was wearing a sword with remarkably similar hilt at the Treat of Gandamak in May, 1879, suggesting the hilt form present by then. The fact that he was commander in chief of Afghan government forces at the time, further suggesting indeed use of these at somewhat higher station.

An example sold by Oriental Arms notes in its description of the typically seen 'regulation' type hilt and heavy, deeply fullered Afghan military sword, that it was of an '1889' issue. Was this an official order? Is there any source for that particular date?
We know most of the examples of these 'regulation' swords date from 1893 to 1903 (mine is 1896). If this was 1889 order, why were none seen until 1893, and where did the hilts that are seen with the Daoud Shah sword come from?

These are the primary questions in my mind at this point.

[ariel]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

....... why were none seen until 1893, and where did the hilts that are seen with the Daoud Shah sword come from?

These are the primary questions in my mind at this point.

Excellent questions, Jim!

I may only put my 5 cents worth.

First, hilts of that construction were used on just garden variety Afghani shamshirs. Here is one, coming from a new Russian books titled " Shamshirs", exact age unknown, but the author attributes it to the second half of the 19th century. I cannot argue: seems plausible.

Second, an Afghan-style sword made in England by Enfield, dated 1857 ( sold by Bonhams). This is already more interesting: did the British produce a prototype for the future Afghani regulation weapons?

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20066/lot/3079/

And last, British-produced bayonet for the Nepali units, 1876 pattern. Pay attention to the D-guard and to the "shield" extending from the quillon over the ricasso. Doesn't it remind you the "afghani" handle?

Overall, my guess is that the so-called "regulation pattern" handles of some Afghani weapons were created by the British for the native troops. They date from the 1850s and were later copied by the Afghani Mashin Khana (sorry: Kaar Khaana e Jangalak :-))

[mahratt]

Ariel, as I wrote in Russian forum, a saber from a book about Shamshir likely remounted to the new hilt in the late 19th century.

Sword the link that I exhibited at the Russian forum - so far the only known. One items - an artifact that can only be a subject for speculation. But can not be used for serious theory.

Bayonet, which thou hast set up does not look like its hilt on Afghan items. I can find you other European stuff with Hilt to the D-guard and to the "shield" extending from the quillon over the ricasso. . But that does not mean that they are - a prototype of Afghan items.

I am sorry for my English.