When is a Tulwar not a Tulwar?

Jim McDougall · 5th August 2013, 05:13 PM

No problem Jens...Im not sure I fully understood what I said either! at least until I reread it. I think this is a hazard of the dreaded age advance

This topic is anything but concise anyway, and as you have wisely pointed out, the terms for the diverse weaponry of India are as varied and complex as the amazing number of languages and dialects that exist there. Factor in the complications of the others that come in through early colonialization and expanding incursions of other cultures!! and yikes!

I recall being told that in the case of many weapons in the Indonesian archipelago and through much of SE Asia, terms can even vary village to village!!! While probably somewhat exaggerated, I think the point is well taken, and applicable in many, if not most, ethnographic contexts.

drac2k · 5th August 2013, 06:25 PM

Jim,
The information you provided was a good starting point and while I have found several 1853 blades produced for the" East India Co.," they all have the European blade configuration.I found several locally produced blades with crude Western type "D," guards with tulwar blades (after our discussion, based subjectively on what one deems to be a tulwar blade),but not as pronounced as mine.These were clearly trying to imitate Western swords.
I think, as you have stated, that the key, is the mark; hopefully it is an armory proof that someone will recognize !
Thanks,
David

M ELEY · 7th August 2013, 09:04 AM

Actually, I think Jim has hit it on the head. The hilt, as I said, looks very similar to the Mole varieties of British swords, with the criss-cross patterning, hilt shape which isn't shaped to the hand, but rounded, like the other brit swords of this period (think m1845 naval cutlass, m1850's artillery swords, etc). Mole exported many swords with this hilt type all over the world (even for the Confederacy during the Amer Civil War). Jim mentions that Mole made tulwar patterns (including ones with similar baldes) for the East Indian troops, so mentioned and even supported by Jim having had several. I seem to recall a pic of one in Southwick's catalog? Have to look that one up. All info, so far and not barring this being a remount, seems to indicate a Brit issuance sword for East Indian troops. Could the marking be a Hindi arsenal number that has been partially rubbed off?

5th August 2013, 05:13 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	No problem Jens...Im not sure I fully understood what I said either! at least until I reread it. I think this is a hazard of the dreaded age advance This topic is anything but concise anyway, and as you have wisely pointed out, the terms for the diverse weaponry of India are as varied and complex as the amazing number of languages and dialects that exist there. Factor in the complications of the others that come in through early colonialization and expanding incursions of other cultures!! and yikes! I recall being told that in the case of many weapons in the Indonesian archipelago and through much of SE Asia, terms can even vary village to village!!! While probably somewhat exaggerated, I think the point is well taken, and applicable in many, if not most, ethnographic contexts.

5th August 2013, 06:25 PM	#2
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,258	Jim, The information you provided was a good starting point and while I have found several 1853 blades produced for the" East India Co.," they all have the European blade configuration.I found several locally produced blades with crude Western type "D," guards with tulwar blades (after our discussion, based subjectively on what one deems to be a tulwar blade),but not as pronounced as mine.These were clearly trying to imitate Western swords. I think, as you have stated, that the key, is the mark; hopefully it is an armory proof that someone will recognize ! Thanks, David

7th August 2013, 09:04 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Actually, I think Jim has hit it on the head. The hilt, as I said, looks very similar to the Mole varieties of British swords, with the criss-cross patterning, hilt shape which isn't shaped to the hand, but rounded, like the other brit swords of this period (think m1845 naval cutlass, m1850's artillery swords, etc). Mole exported many swords with this hilt type all over the world (even for the Confederacy during the Amer Civil War). Jim mentions that Mole made tulwar patterns (including ones with similar baldes) for the East Indian troops, so mentioned and even supported by Jim having had several. I seem to recall a pic of one in Southwick's catalog? Have to look that one up. All info, so far and not barring this being a remount, seems to indicate a Brit issuance sword for East Indian troops. Could the marking be a Hindi arsenal number that has been partially rubbed off?