Poisoned pearls

tom hyle · 2nd January 2005, 09:45 PM

Most interestinly odd that these are set in grooves, rather than in slots that go all the way through the blade; such would be more common to my experience, daggers (sometimes full size swords, too) in Europe have been pierced with slots and holes to hold poison.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2005, 03:09 AM

Jens,
These are beautiful examples of very unusual katar set. The grooved channel with moving ball bearings (pearls) brings to mind a number of discussions over the years concerning edged weapons with this feature.

The phrase typically applied seems to be 'tears of the wounded' or 'of the afflicted' in some cases.
In folklore the pearl often symbolizes tears or sorrow, however despite this rather negative perspective it has found inclusion in many early medicinal remedies. While obviously pharmacologically inert, early medicine relied heavily on superstition and occult, and the attractive value of the pearl seemed well placed in various elaborate treatments.

With this more positive perspective for the pearl, it seems unlikely of course that the poisoning idea would have any merit. It does seem typical for this assumption to have been considered by western observers, as many very unusual weapons which appeared in India seemed to evade explanation for thier strange features. The example given in another discussion of the scissors form of katar brought out attempts to explain its use including to worsen a wound, and you well explained the physical unlikelihood of that action.
It is becoming more clear with investigation of the weapons of India, that many of the curious and innovative designs and features are intended for aesthetic and symbolic purposes, rather than practical applications.

The observation that these grooves are channeled above the blade surface rather than pierced through the blade recalls also discussions of the tears of the wounded blades. It was suggested that such piercing may compromise the integrity of the blade in combat, so these may have been intended for parade or ceremonial use only. Since these katars have solid blade, they presumably are considered quite usable.

Returning to the poison concept, there is a specific term used for daggers or swords with poisoned blades in India ...'abhradar' (Pant. p.235), so the concept was apparantly known there...but association with pearls has yet to be determined. Possibly Hendley's reference may have been metaphoric and referring to the deadly potential of the weapon with the unusual feature?
It is well known that literature has often capitalized on such dramatic vehicles as 'poisoned blades' , such as Fredegonde, Queen of the Franks, who had iron knives 'caraxee' (hollowed) to hold poison (Boutell, 1868, p.93 "Arms & Armour in Antiquity and the Middle Ages")...and Hendley was of course privy to such literature.

There is a great deal of symbolic metaphor imbued in the edged weapons of India, which has escaped the pragmatic observations of narrators and writers from the west. It is fascinating to consider the more subjective possibilities.

Very best regards,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 3rd January 2005, 09:53 AM

Hi Jim,

It may be like you say, or it may not. Like Hendley also writes: ‘In close combat a katar can be most fatal’. As he was a military surgeon, I guess that he knew what he was writing about, but when it came to the wounds a katar could make, but also when it came to the poison. Maybe he rather thought than knew about the poisoned pearls.

Regards

Jens

B.I · 3rd January 2005, 12:21 PM

hi jens and jim,
the ones i have handled, although some were of good fighting form, they seem to show an artisan showing his art to its fullest. hendly, throughout his stay in india amidst his multiple roles in society over there (apart from his medical role, he was also hon. secretary of the jeypore museum and amongst the committee of several exhibitions of decorative arts) he showed a true passion for indian art. as well as the decoration of arms which he studied and (luckily for us) recorded, he was also involved heavily in other decorative and non-martial arms. for this reason, and this reason alone, i feel he was involved in what was relatively modern for his time (mid to late 19thC). his publications reflect this and so i think his 'poison' attribution could have possibly been folklore of the time. his attributions of the pieces in his ulwar book stemed from his own knowledge of the more modern pieces (which was extensive) but the descriptions of the older pieces came from the armouries accession notes, which could have been speculative. in his decorative arts book, he was in his element and it remains one of the most important books written on indian decoration, even though these were all of the 19thC.
as all the 'tears of the wounded' swords seem to date from the 19thC, although fiegel/tirri/pant date theirs to 17thC, i feel this enforces the decorative purpose of these pieces. the 17thC attribution has long been debated, mainly due to tirri taking his from fiegel, and fiegel taking his from the piece in dehli catalogued by pant, and pant taking his from the toss of a coin

the piece in the V&A has a distinctly 19thC hilt, as has 4 others i have seen, as well as the ones documented and in museums. of course swords are rehilted but i have yet to see one that hints at an earlier date (as always i look forward to be proven wrong).
as for the pearls. the V&A aquired an extensive collection of arms in 1964 from the collection of lord kitchener (after a long loan). amongst these was the well known sword of Dara Shukoh, which has been catalogued in various publications (arts of india for eg). this blade had a fabulous, almost black watered pattern, as did many others from the collection (elgood shows the early south indian swords from the same collection in his new book). hidden amongst these extremely important pieces (none of which are on show apart from the Dara Shukoh sword) is a small jambiya, of arabian form. the blade has this distinctive black watering and the fuller is channelled to incorporate 12-15 real pearls. it is the only piece i have seen with real pearls, which came from a collection formed in the 19thC. the piece is decorative but of typical jambiya form) and of the highest quaility. this hints at a court attribution, as many of his pieces were royal gifts (important swords, even for the time) during his role in india. i think these pieces hit into folklore around hendleys time, and steel balls may have been used to imitate this royal style and turned this type of sword into almost mythical proportion, hence the legends that started to circulate and continue now.
indian art has always run alongside mythology and folklore, and the miniatures and sculpture through the centuries fully show this. even the courtly scenes of the 19thC tend to lend towards the fantasy in places, and as this was the only real form of recording history at the time, it is hard to distinguish between the two sometimes.
sorry for not mentioning the pearled jambiya in the past, jens. i know how frustrating a description is without an image and i was waiting for the chance to supply you with both.

Jim McDougall · 3rd January 2005, 09:53 PM

Hi Jens & Brian,
I think we all agree that many of the more elaborate Indian weapons as well as western observations on them were in degree whimsical and subject in many cases to certain folklore in traditional sense.

In "Indian Firearm Curiosa" ("Arms & Armour" Vol.1, #1, p.81), Ian Bottomley states; "...Indian gunmakers enjoyed the patronage of clients who delighted in novelties. Guns were incorporated into other weapons such as axes,maces and swords...".

Naturally this illustrates the climate of armourers in India, especially in the 19th c. , when unique and exotic looking weapons were quite in vogue with the many rulers of varied principalities. Probably these proved interesting as gifts in the diplomatic strains between rulers under the suzerainty of the British Raj as well.

Bottomley (op.cit.) states further; "...all of these weapons, no matter how
cunningly concealed or cleverly devised, were in reality highly impractical".

I think this is for most of these 'weapons curiosa' typically the case, whether edged weapons or firearms, or both combined. As Tom Hyle mentioned, the concept of poisoned weapons seems to have been well known in folklore and tradition in most cultures. It seems the only actual application which seems undoubtedly established are the poison darts and arrows known in tribal warfare. For most edged weapons, the poison seems redundant as presumably the thrust or blow would prove mortal in most cases, especially with limited medical expertise available. With the dart or arrow, the wound potential is somewhat limited as a distanced projectile, thus the wound with a poisoned tip would prove certainly fatal regardless of its location anatomically.
Much of the concept with 'poisoned weapons' is likely psychological, as is presumed with 'voodoo' where the conditioned response to implication is sometimes quite measurable with the victims reaction.

All the best,
Jim

Jens Nordlunde · 26th November 2017, 09:25 PM

I think this is an interesting subject.
Does anyone know if it was usual in India to use poisoned weapons?

Mercenary · 26th November 2017, 10:31 PM

Pearls or beads in the blades have nothing to do with poison. The answer lies in the old Persian poetic momentum. "Shine of the blade" = "Shine of the pearl" = "Shine of life" (the life that had been taken away from a man who had been killed by the blade). While in the old language for the concept of "shine" ("shine of pearl", "shine of blade") had been used known for us word "jauhar". So the pearls in the blade is its "jauhar", the shine of the blade, the soul of the blade. We always make the mistake when trying to understand the Eastern traditional weapons only from the practical European point of view.

3rd January 2005, 12:21 PM	#4
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	pearls hi jens and jim, the ones i have handled, although some were of good fighting form, they seem to show an artisan showing his art to its fullest. hendly, throughout his stay in india amidst his multiple roles in society over there (apart from his medical role, he was also hon. secretary of the jeypore museum and amongst the committee of several exhibitions of decorative arts) he showed a true passion for indian art. as well as the decoration of arms which he studied and (luckily for us) recorded, he was also involved heavily in other decorative and non-martial arms. for this reason, and this reason alone, i feel he was involved in what was relatively modern for his time (mid to late 19thC). his publications reflect this and so i think his 'poison' attribution could have possibly been folklore of the time. his attributions of the pieces in his ulwar book stemed from his own knowledge of the more modern pieces (which was extensive) but the descriptions of the older pieces came from the armouries accession notes, which could have been speculative. in his decorative arts book, he was in his element and it remains one of the most important books written on indian decoration, even though these were all of the 19thC. as all the 'tears of the wounded' swords seem to date from the 19thC, although fiegel/tirri/pant date theirs to 17thC, i feel this enforces the decorative purpose of these pieces. the 17thC attribution has long been debated, mainly due to tirri taking his from fiegel, and fiegel taking his from the piece in dehli catalogued by pant, and pant taking his from the toss of a coin the piece in the V&A has a distinctly 19thC hilt, as has 4 others i have seen, as well as the ones documented and in museums. of course swords are rehilted but i have yet to see one that hints at an earlier date (as always i look forward to be proven wrong). as for the pearls. the V&A aquired an extensive collection of arms in 1964 from the collection of lord kitchener (after a long loan). amongst these was the well known sword of Dara Shukoh, which has been catalogued in various publications (arts of india for eg). this blade had a fabulous, almost black watered pattern, as did many others from the collection (elgood shows the early south indian swords from the same collection in his new book). hidden amongst these extremely important pieces (none of which are on show apart from the Dara Shukoh sword) is a small jambiya, of arabian form. the blade has this distinctive black watering and the fuller is channelled to incorporate 12-15 real pearls. it is the only piece i have seen with real pearls, which came from a collection formed in the 19thC. the piece is decorative but of typical jambiya form) and of the highest quaility. this hints at a court attribution, as many of his pieces were royal gifts (important swords, even for the time) during his role in india. i think these pieces hit into folklore around hendleys time, and steel balls may have been used to imitate this royal style and turned this type of sword into almost mythical proportion, hence the legends that started to circulate and continue now. indian art has always run alongside mythology and folklore, and the miniatures and sculpture through the centuries fully show this. even the courtly scenes of the 19thC tend to lend towards the fantasy in places, and as this was the only real form of recording history at the time, it is hard to distinguish between the two sometimes. sorry for not mentioning the pearled jambiya in the past, jens. i know how frustrating a description is without an image and i was waiting for the chance to supply you with both.

3rd January 2005, 09:53 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Jens & Brian, I think we all agree that many of the more elaborate Indian weapons as well as western observations on them were in degree whimsical and subject in many cases to certain folklore in traditional sense. In "Indian Firearm Curiosa" ("Arms & Armour" Vol.1, #1, p.81), Ian Bottomley states; "...Indian gunmakers enjoyed the patronage of clients who delighted in novelties. Guns were incorporated into other weapons such as axes,maces and swords...". Naturally this illustrates the climate of armourers in India, especially in the 19th c. , when unique and exotic looking weapons were quite in vogue with the many rulers of varied principalities. Probably these proved interesting as gifts in the diplomatic strains between rulers under the suzerainty of the British Raj as well. Bottomley (op.cit.) states further; "...all of these weapons, no matter how cunningly concealed or cleverly devised, were in reality highly impractical". I think this is for most of these 'weapons curiosa' typically the case, whether edged weapons or firearms, or both combined. As Tom Hyle mentioned, the concept of poisoned weapons seems to have been well known in folklore and tradition in most cultures. It seems the only actual application which seems undoubtedly established are the poison darts and arrows known in tribal warfare. For most edged weapons, the poison seems redundant as presumably the thrust or blow would prove mortal in most cases, especially with limited medical expertise available. With the dart or arrow, the wound potential is somewhat limited as a distanced projectile, thus the wound with a poisoned tip would prove certainly fatal regardless of its location anatomically. Much of the concept with 'poisoned weapons' is likely psychological, as is presumed with 'voodoo' where the conditioned response to implication is sometimes quite measurable with the victims reaction. All the best, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 4th January 2005 at 12:19 AM.

2nd January 2005, 09:45 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Most interestinly odd that these are set in grooves, rather than in slots that go all the way through the blade; such would be more common to my experience, daggers (sometimes full size swords, too) in Europe have been pierced with slots and holes to hold poison.

3rd January 2005, 03:09 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Jens, These are beautiful examples of very unusual katar set. The grooved channel with moving ball bearings (pearls) brings to mind a number of discussions over the years concerning edged weapons with this feature. The phrase typically applied seems to be 'tears of the wounded' or 'of the afflicted' in some cases. In folklore the pearl often symbolizes tears or sorrow, however despite this rather negative perspective it has found inclusion in many early medicinal remedies. While obviously pharmacologically inert, early medicine relied heavily on superstition and occult, and the attractive value of the pearl seemed well placed in various elaborate treatments. With this more positive perspective for the pearl, it seems unlikely of course that the poisoning idea would have any merit. It does seem typical for this assumption to have been considered by western observers, as many very unusual weapons which appeared in India seemed to evade explanation for thier strange features. The example given in another discussion of the scissors form of katar brought out attempts to explain its use including to worsen a wound, and you well explained the physical unlikelihood of that action. It is becoming more clear with investigation of the weapons of India, that many of the curious and innovative designs and features are intended for aesthetic and symbolic purposes, rather than practical applications. The observation that these grooves are channeled above the blade surface rather than pierced through the blade recalls also discussions of the tears of the wounded blades. It was suggested that such piercing may compromise the integrity of the blade in combat, so these may have been intended for parade or ceremonial use only. Since these katars have solid blade, they presumably are considered quite usable. Returning to the poison concept, there is a specific term used for daggers or swords with poisoned blades in India ...'abhradar' (Pant. p.235), so the concept was apparantly known there...but association with pearls has yet to be determined. Possibly Hendley's reference may have been metaphoric and referring to the deadly potential of the weapon with the unusual feature? It is well known that literature has often capitalized on such dramatic vehicles as 'poisoned blades' , such as Fredegonde, Queen of the Franks, who had iron knives 'caraxee' (hollowed) to hold poison (Boutell, 1868, p.93 "Arms & Armour in Antiquity and the Middle Ages")...and Hendley was of course privy to such literature. There is a great deal of symbolic metaphor imbued in the edged weapons of India, which has escaped the pragmatic observations of narrators and writers from the west. It is fascinating to consider the more subjective possibilities. Very best regards, Jim

3rd January 2005, 09:53 AM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Jim, It may be like you say, or it may not. Like Hendley also writes: ‘In close combat a katar can be most fatal’. As he was a military surgeon, I guess that he knew what he was writing about, but when it came to the wounds a katar could make, but also when it came to the poison. Maybe he rather thought than knew about the poisoned pearls. Regards Jens

26th November 2017, 09:25 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I think this is an interesting subject. Does anyone know if it was usual in India to use poisoned weapons?

26th November 2017, 10:31 PM	#7
Mercenary Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 426	Pearls or beads in the blades have nothing to do with poison. The answer lies in the old Persian poetic momentum. "Shine of the blade" = "Shine of the pearl" = "Shine of life" (the life that had been taken away from a man who had been killed by the blade). While in the old language for the concept of "shine" ("shine of pearl", "shine of blade") had been used known for us word "jauhar". So the pearls in the blade is its "jauhar", the shine of the blade, the soul of the blade. We always make the mistake when trying to understand the Eastern traditional weapons only from the practical European point of view.