Katzbalger found at excavation and restored.

VANDOO · 26th June 2013, 07:36 PM

AMAZING RESTORATION! I KNOW VERY LITTLE IN THIS FIELD BUT WILL MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS TO LOOK INTO. THE TOOLS MAY INDICATE THE TRADE OF THE OWNER OF THE SWORD OR BE TOOLS FOR SERVICING SOME DEVICE HE WAS IN CHARGE OF. YOU MAY GET QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THESE TOOLS AND THEIR USES PERHAPS IN A MEDEVIL TOOL FORUM. THERE SHOULD BE SOME GOOD INFORMATION FORTHCOMING ON THE SWORD AS THERE ARE MANY KNOWLEGABLE MEMBERS HERE. GOOD LUCK

Iain · 29th June 2013, 09:49 AM

Just a little bump for the thread as I think the restoration is fairly amazing - I can't recall seeing an example that looked that far 'gone' being brought back to anything like that condition. I'm rather curious how they did it!

fernando · 29th June 2013, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

... I can't recall seeing an example that looked that far 'gone' being brought back to anything like that condition...

Amen

CutlassCollector · 29th June 2013, 01:02 PM

Yes, I was thinking the same - it's hard to imagine that end result on the blade without some addition of new material but perhaps that's the difference between restoration and conservation.
It's certainly an amazing transformation and it would be interesting to know a little of the techniques involved. CC

E Farrell · 2nd July 2013, 11:16 PM

I thought I had seen something similar:

McNab, C. (Editor) (2010). Swords: A Visual History. London, Dorling Kindersley Limited.

Horrid book if you're looking for information, but not a bad place to find examples. Pages 150-154 are useful to you. I'll upload reduced images on here per forum rules, and imgur link to the full res versions of the scans. Apologies for doing it in parts; my scanner isn't large enough to do the entire two page spreads.

Both are German, dated 1662. A bit late for your date range, but the associated toolkit looks very, very similar. Perhaps an earlier occurrence of the same purpose?

Imgur links (should be sufficiently high-res to read what text there is):
http://i.imgur.com/Ha0i5Sz.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FhSf3cR.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3FTI5Ib.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/SYJ91cP.jpg

cornelistromp · 7th July 2013, 08:25 PM

the Katzbalger with comb like the one under discussion is a very rare appearance among the already scarce known group of Katzbalgers.

The ones with a comb that I am aware of, I will enumerate them all, come from Dutch soil, Dutch museums and/or old Dutch collections.
This may be a coincidence, but it may also be that this type has been manufactured. in the Low Countries
the style attribute "comb" also occurs on helmets and body protection in the first half of the 16th century.
The Blade of two of the examples mentioned in this post can be traced to southern Germany;
-the blade of the Katzbalger in the Dutch army museum has crossed flails and bavarian arms, a checked shield struck into the blade of Melchior Diefstetter, a blade smith working in or around Munich in the second quarter of the 16th century (1520-1555). another found in Millingen has the Passau wolf inlaid in the blade.
There was a thriving trade of quality blades in the 16th century, it can be that this type was Katzbalger made or let say composed in the Low Countries with an imported blade.

In art, the Katzbalger with comb sporadically appears, a clear example is a drawing made by Heinich Aldegrever and dated 1529.

1. Katzbalger legermuseum dated by JP Puype 1520-1550, blade by Melchior Diefstetter.
2. katzbalger, auctioned by Thomas del Mar in 2006 and dated in the second quarter of the 16th century.
3.Katzbalger found in Millingen and published by J.Ypey.
4.Katzbalger found in Rotterdam
5.katzbalger probably found in zeeland
6.Katzbalger in private collection, published by J.Ypey.
7. drawing By Heinrich Aldegrever.

best,
Jasper

ThisisDustin · 11th July 2013, 12:01 AM

I would hate to burst bubbles but I personally cannot believe that is an actual restoration and not a recreation. What's important to realize with a sword in a heavily excavated condition like that is that you're not just seeing a layer of rust on top but a complete decomposition and oxidation through the metal. From a conservation standpoint there is literally nothing you can do. There is nothing left to work with

. Plus all of the pieces have essentially fused together making it impossible to access parts of the sword. Having handled pieces like this I can attest to how absolutely brittle they are. It would destroy the sword to even attempt to wipe at it let alone buff it. Hence, I am curious where you saw this. A link would be most welcome.

That said it is very cool! And even if it is a recreation it seems to really capture what this Katzbalger may have looked like in its working life.

2nd July 2013, 11:16 PM	#5
E Farrell Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 22	I thought I had seen something similar: McNab, C. (Editor) (2010). Swords: A Visual History. London, Dorling Kindersley Limited. Horrid book if you're looking for information, but not a bad place to find examples. Pages 150-154 are useful to you. I'll upload reduced images on here per forum rules, and imgur link to the full res versions of the scans. Apologies for doing it in parts; my scanner isn't large enough to do the entire two page spreads. Both are German, dated 1662. A bit late for your date range, but the associated toolkit looks very, very similar. Perhaps an earlier occurrence of the same purpose? Imgur links (should be sufficiently high-res to read what text there is): http://i.imgur.com/Ha0i5Sz.jpg http://i.imgur.com/FhSf3cR.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3FTI5Ib.jpg http://i.imgur.com/SYJ91cP.jpg Attached Images

7th July 2013, 08:25 PM	#6
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	short motivation the Katzbalger with comb like the one under discussion is a very rare appearance among the already scarce known group of Katzbalgers. The ones with a comb that I am aware of, I will enumerate them all, come from Dutch soil, Dutch museums and/or old Dutch collections. This may be a coincidence, but it may also be that this type has been manufactured. in the Low Countries the style attribute "comb" also occurs on helmets and body protection in the first half of the 16th century. The Blade of two of the examples mentioned in this post can be traced to southern Germany; -the blade of the Katzbalger in the Dutch army museum has crossed flails and bavarian arms, a checked shield struck into the blade of Melchior Diefstetter, a blade smith working in or around Munich in the second quarter of the 16th century (1520-1555). another found in Millingen has the Passau wolf inlaid in the blade. There was a thriving trade of quality blades in the 16th century, it can be that this type was Katzbalger made or let say composed in the Low Countries with an imported blade. In art, the Katzbalger with comb sporadically appears, a clear example is a drawing made by Heinich Aldegrever and dated 1529. 1. Katzbalger legermuseum dated by JP Puype 1520-1550, blade by Melchior Diefstetter. 2. katzbalger, auctioned by Thomas del Mar in 2006 and dated in the second quarter of the 16th century. 3.Katzbalger found in Millingen and published by J.Ypey. 4.Katzbalger found in Rotterdam 5.katzbalger probably found in zeeland 6.Katzbalger in private collection, published by J.Ypey. 7. drawing By Heinrich Aldegrever. best, Jasper Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 7th July 2013 at 09:01 PM.

11th July 2013, 12:01 AM	#7
ThisisDustin Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1	Interesting! I would hate to burst bubbles but I personally cannot believe that is an actual restoration and not a recreation. What's important to realize with a sword in a heavily excavated condition like that is that you're not just seeing a layer of rust on top but a complete decomposition and oxidation through the metal. From a conservation standpoint there is literally nothing you can do. There is nothing left to work with . Plus all of the pieces have essentially fused together making it impossible to access parts of the sword. Having handled pieces like this I can attest to how absolutely brittle they are. It would destroy the sword to even attempt to wipe at it let alone buff it. Hence, I am curious where you saw this. A link would be most welcome. That said it is very cool! And even if it is a recreation it seems to really capture what this Katzbalger may have looked like in its working life.

26th June 2013, 07:36 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	AMAZING RESTORATION! I KNOW VERY LITTLE IN THIS FIELD BUT WILL MAKE SOME SUGGESTIONS TO LOOK INTO. THE TOOLS MAY INDICATE THE TRADE OF THE OWNER OF THE SWORD OR BE TOOLS FOR SERVICING SOME DEVICE HE WAS IN CHARGE OF. YOU MAY GET QUITE A LOT OF INFORMATION IF YOU CAN IDENTIFY THESE TOOLS AND THEIR USES PERHAPS IN A MEDEVIL TOOL FORUM. THERE SHOULD BE SOME GOOD INFORMATION FORTHCOMING ON THE SWORD AS THERE ARE MANY KNOWLEGABLE MEMBERS HERE. GOOD LUCK

29th June 2013, 09:49 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Just a little bump for the thread as I think the restoration is fairly amazing - I can't recall seeing an example that looked that far 'gone' being brought back to anything like that condition. I'm rather curious how they did it!

29th June 2013, 01:02 PM	#4
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 357	Yes, I was thinking the same - it's hard to imagine that end result on the blade without some addition of new material but perhaps that's the difference between restoration and conservation. It's certainly an amazing transformation and it would be interesting to know a little of the techniques involved. CC