Dagger ID - unknown date and culture

[Martin Lubojacky]

Welcome to the forum.

I would also say the blade is comming from the Sahel region. Enclosed please find Tuareg blade with slightly similar decoration, allegedly made in Agadez. Such big orange beads (imitating amber) like this used to be used for necklaces in Sahel

Regards,

Martin

[Iain]

Yes I would agree, the blade and decorative forms are found across the Sahel. I think Martin is spot on with regards to the bead, the enamel cap perhaps speaks of a Egyptian link? It is not a typical style I recognize from the Sudan or western Sahel. But I'm not really expert in these little daggers like some of our other members.

[E Farrell]

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

I would also say the blade is comming from the Sahel region. Enclosed please find Tuareg blade with slightly similar decoration, allegedly made in Agadez. Such big orange beads (imitating amber) like this used to be used for necklaces in Sahel

Many thanks; the blade designs on the right-most example in that photo are quite similar. Adding Tuareg knives to the search list has gained me a few more examples.

I have found the beads you mention and they do look very, very similar. Do you know of any other examples where this material is used on a knife? The cultural association and physical evidence on the knife are enough that I believe I can be confident the large faux-amber bead is original, but I am curious if there are other examples known.

I think Martin is spot on with regards to the bead, the enamel cap perhaps speaks of a Egyptian link?

Egypt or trade from Egypt is possible for the enamel, but it seems a little odd to me. Egypt does have a long tradition of enamel work, but I can't find any usage on knives in modern Egypt. Excluding one ongoing Ebay sale for a knife that is simultaneously Egyptian, Arabic and Cossack, and I'm inclined to discount that as a source. To me the enamel looks Southeast Asian, but it's so badly damaged it's difficult to tell. And the only places I can find enamel used on knives with any regularity is Russia and the old Soviet-bloc Central Asian states.


To all:

I've found a couple old vikingsword thread with examples I can draw from, as well as those posted in this thread. One post of interest is at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...82&postcount=9

From the examples here and from searching Tuareg, Hausa, Manding and general Sahel knives I'm pretty confident in the blade. That alone is a massive improvement - I was looking through most of Asia before all of your help - but am still not really sure of the handle.

On the post linked above there is a set of knives (see attached photo, red circle) from further south. The left-most of these three has completely the wrong blade profile for the knife I am working on, but the profile of the handle (at least in a black and white line drawing) looks very similar. It is apparently from the book "Armes traditionnelles d'Afrique. {dagues,poignards,glaives,epees,tranchets et couperets} Approche regionale et classification technique, morphologique et esthetique. Tristan Arbousse Bastide."

Does anyone have a copy they don't mind looking at, or know what that knife is? Is there actually a style with a similar handle profile, or is that just because of the low detail of the drawing that it looks similar?


Also, does anyone have a guess on the date range? My instinct is late 19th century based purely on the level of wear and corrosion on the blade, but that's not exactly a reliable dating method. Failing a guess on this knife in particular, is there a date range typical for Sahel-region blades of this style?


I know I'm asking a lot of questions here but as a final request (for this post at least), does anyone have recommendations for books on North African knives or bladed weapons in general?


Thanks again for the help and the warm welcome!

[VANDOO]

WELCOME TO THE FORUM I THINK THE BLADE AND THE LEATHER COVERED FERRULE ARE ORIGINAL AND THE KNIFE LOOKED VERY SIMULAR TO THE ONE TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE PICTURE OF 4 KNIVES.
MANY TIMES THINGS THAT HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH KNIVES ARE PIECED TOGETHER TO BECOME A ONE OF A KIND ODDITY, I THINK THIS ITEM PROBABLY FALLS INTO THAT CATAGORY. SOMETIMES THEY ARE PIECED TOGETHER BY THE OWNER AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE PIECED TOGETHER FROM BITS FOUND IN THE SOUKS. THE BEAD WAS ORIGINALLY JEWELRY AND THE ENAMEL BIT LIKELY CAME FROM SOMETHING OTHER THAN A KNIFE PERHAPS A VESSEL OR LAMP FINAL.?
I PERSONALLY FIND THIS SORT OF KNIFE INTERESTING AND THEY NO DOUBT HAVE A STORY TO TELL IF THEY COULD ONLY SPEAK. TO PIN THE ENTIRE CONSTRUCT TOGETHER BY TRIBE OR AREA IS VERY DIFFICULT AS SUCH BEADS CAN EVEN BE FOUND FOR SALE IN THE MIDWEST OF THE USA. I WOULD IDENTIFY IT ONLY FROM THE BLADE AND JUST LOOK ON THE BEAD AND ENAMEL AS BLING ADDED LATER TO MAKE A SALE OR BY THE OWNER SOMEWHERE IN AFRICA. GOOD LUCK ON YOUR PROJECT.

[Iain]

I should perhaps clarify why I suggested Egypt, not as an overall source of the dagger, but just of the enamel cap.

To my eyes the entire thing could be a local imitation of a Ottoman style dagger, somewhat like this one: http://www.christies.com/lotfinder/l...jectID=4363052

In a Sudanese context of course the potential for this sort of influence is ripe during the 19th century.

This link for the blade: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1139

May prove interesting.

[Martin Lubojacky]

As far as books about African cold weapons are concerned, there are many authors already -e.g. I have books by Manfred Zirngibl - but he is mostly concentrated on Africa south of Sahara. I would say there are some books on north African blades (French authors ? - I would also appreciate if some of colleagues could intrioduce them here). I also like Christopher Spring. His African Armes and Armour is relativelly "thin", but sententious...

The similarity of those "three knives" you identified on the picture from the book is purely accidental. In fact it is going on one short Fang sword and two types of sheath. The profile of the handle is similar only due to high reduction of the drawing.

Concerning the enamel parts in North Africa: As everybody knows, big part of North Africa/south coast of Mediterraneann Sea was under Turkey for centuries. I think one could find interesting parts of various items in old bazaars till now. And Coucasus was under Turkey too...... This is just construction, but the true is, that I found a very nice large kinjal in Tripolis years ago - typical Caucasus item from 19th century. As I was told that time - this was remainder of Turkish garrison in Misurata. The personnel was purely from Caucasus and used to be renewed every few years. And I think items could penetrate south - to Sahara

"....AND THEY NO DOUBT HAVE A STORY TO TELL IF THEY COULD ONLY SPEAK...." - I think Vandoo is 100 % right. This is also what attract me to collect old african weapons....

[E Farrell]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SOMETIMES THEY ARE PIECED TOGETHER BY THE OWNER AND SOMETIMES THEY ARE PIECED TOGETHER FROM BITS FOUND IN THE SOUKS. THE BEAD WAS ORIGINALLY JEWELRY AND THE ENAMEL BIT LIKELY CAME FROM SOMETHING OTHER THAN A KNIFE PERHAPS A VESSEL OR LAMP FINAL.?

I agree that the enamel is probably added by someone at some point; I keep asking questions on that line in the (possibly vain) hope that I can find a way to tell if it was the previous owner or someone in Africa who made the addition.

A lamp finial is actually a very good suggestion for the enamel; size and shape are broadly correct for it. What little I am familiar with in Egypt is earlier, but I know a few people I can ask who are familiar with later Egyptian artefacts. Hopefully the enamel is recognizable by someone.


Iain:

I should perhaps clarify why I suggested Egypt, not as an overall source of the dagger, but just of the enamel cap.

Ah; my mistake on that then.

In a Sudanese context of course the potential for this sort of influence is ripe during the 19th century. This link for the blade: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=1139

The link is very interesting. Upper hilt is pretty much the same shape, and the pommel is at least a broadly similar shape. And Sudan as well... really starting to like that hypothesis...



Martin Lubojacky:

As far as books about African cold weapons are concerned, there are many authors already -e.g. I have books by Manfred Zirngibl - but he is mostly concentrated on Africa south of Sahara. I would say there are some books on north African blades (French authors ? - I would also appreciate if some of colleagues could intrioduce them here). I also like Christopher Spring. His African Armes and Armour is relativelly "thin", but sententious...

I can access the Tristan Bastide book the page in my last post was from (and its 2008 update "Du couteau au sabre: armes traditionnelles d'Afrique) via the university library; should be able to grab them tomorrow. Nothing available to me by Zirngibl, but, alas, I am unable to read German anyway. I should be able to dig up a copy of 'African Arms and Armour' as well though. Many thanks for the recommendations. If you (or anyone else) think of other interesting sources, I will never say no to extra information.

The similarity of those "three knives" you identified on the picture from the book is purely accidental. In fact it is going on one short Fang sword and two types of sheath. The profile of the handle is similar only due to high reduction of the drawing.

Cheers. Thought it might just be the low-res drawing, but I'm ignorant enough of African weapons that I have to ask anyway.

"....AND THEY NO DOUBT HAVE A STORY TO TELL IF THEY COULD ONLY SPEAK...." - I think Vandoo is 100 % right. This is also what attract me to collect old african weapons....

Agreed; the stories such objects tell can be beyond fascinating... the trouble is in tracking down what evidence the story leaves behind.