Question: Chinese spears

[KuKulzA28]

fearn, the car advice is gold, thanks
I will need to get myself a few waxwood shafts...
Good point about the rigidity vs flexibility thing, I think my ash pole should be flexible enough.

I heard of Muye Dobo Tongji. I haven't read a translation myself however. I have seen the youtube videos, and they seem to be doing a good job researching and reviving the ancient tradition.


Timo, great points. Aside from the the civilization of weapons, I think also the growing reliance of militias during a time of increasing ineptitude in government means also that local martial arts could have had growing influence over the armaments of the locals. Not to mention the diffusion of martial arts styles as well... for example, the Plum Blossom spear form being found in Hung Gar, far south of its origins in Shandong I think...


EDIT: slightly off-topic, but... for those who have read the 長鎗法選 or a translation of it, what are they referring to in terms of inner circle and outer circle? Perhaps I know what they are referring to but not their terminology...

[Timo Nieminen]

The relevant spear material from Muye Dobo Tongji. This is from the Kim translation, and the Chinese is not available, only the English. I believe this is translated into English from a Korean translation, rather than directly from the original Chinese.

(a) The best wood is yew. Spruce is too flexible, and bamboo is too soft.

(b) Jillyo wood is best, then mulberry, then armor maple. Nothing else can be used.

(c) The best wood is jumok (ju wood, might be white oak), then bipa wood which is similar to oak, then palm tree.

A couple of other woods are named (only Korean names are given). From the further description, one might be white waxwood.

Jillyo might be 柘條木 (zhe wood), it is described as thorny.

Bamboo pole and laminated bamboo spears were used.

Butt spikes are used. Pointed, and copper (bronze?). All spears, except bamboo spears, are shown with butt spikes in the illustrations.

[Timo Nieminen]

Spears in Qing art. Source: This (and the rest of the volumes) is the source.

(a) 18th century, Luoluo people in Yunnan. Spears about 8' long, heads might be single-edged. Steel/iron butt spikes.

(b) 1793, war against Gurkhas. Spears are about 10' long, heads are long, maybe 10" blades, parallel sides. Red tassels at base of head, no butt spikes.

(c) 1829, suppression of rebellion in Xinjiang. Spears as above.

(d) Some enlarged details of some paintings are shown, but the sources are not given. One series, which appear to be about the defeat of the Zunghars, has spears of about 10', red tassels, diamond-shaped heads. In other details, spears are shown with no tassels, a sleeve about the blade end of the haft, and butt spikes.

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

slightly off-topic, but... for those who have read the 長鎗法選 or a translation of it, what are they referring to in terms of inner circle and outer circle? Perhaps I know what they are referring to but not their terminology...

Centre and periphery, I think. If you hold the spear with right hand forwards, the spear is to your left. A thrust coming in on the right of your spear is in your inner circle. A thrust coming in on the left of your spear (perhaps to face or left shoulder) would be in your outer circle. Think of "inner circle" as the space between your spear haft and your body. Outside that is the outer circle. For the grip above, with spear on left, I don't if outer circle includes the right side of the body (so the whole torso), or only the left side (i.e., the side closer to the spear).

[KuKulzA28]

Seems like butt-caps/spikes come and go...

Originally Posted by Timo Nieminen

Centre and periphery, I think. If you hold the spear with right hand forwards, the spear is to your left. A thrust coming in on the right of your spear is in your inner circle. A thrust coming in on the left of your spear (perhaps to face or left shoulder) would be in your outer circle. Think of "inner circle" as the space between your spear haft and your body. Outside that is the outer circle. For the grip above, with spear on left, I don't if outer circle includes the right side of the body (so the whole torso), or only the left side (i.e., the side closer to the spear).

My impression was similar to yours that it was something like this

[fearn]

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

From reading bits of the English translation (http://www.chineselongsword.com/speartranslation.shtml), I'd say that the general idea is that inside/outside are based on which foot is forward, which varies depending on which stance you are in and where the front of your body is facing. It appears to assume that your opponent is standing with right foot forward, but that's just in the free samples they provide.

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

My personal favorite introduction to the spear is from Cold Steel (www.coldsteel.com/files/Riposte/The-Spear.pdf). It demystifies spears in a hurry, and it has the bonus of being free.

My 0.0000002 cents,

F

[KuKulzA28]

Originally Posted by fearn

The same inside/outside division shows up in some old European texts, if I remember right. Basically, the front of your body (guts, groin, chest) is on the inside, and your back and butt are on the outside. Since with a spear, you are standing with one foot forward, this divides each side into left and right. I think the "circle" is meant metaphorically, rather than literally.

Hmm, that sounds like something my shigong has told me, in swordplay, that the front is the "tiger side" and the back is the "dragon side"... and in fist-fighting (or any melee combat) there's various advantages to taking the opponent's center-line (tiger-side/inside) or going to their outside and flanking them. Perhaps this is what they are referrign to like you said...

Originally Posted by fearn

I'd take their spear descriptions and illustrations with a small boulder of salt. The spears described are the equivalent of European pikes, but the pictures show a spear about two meters long. They're somewhat different weapons, so be careful.

I did notice that. Not sure why the artist would have depicted the spears so short when they were meant to be training with a spear about 10.6' in length.

Originally Posted by fearn

Another point is that the video with the translation should be watched carefully. In particular, pay attention to how often the demonstrator locks his elbow (bad idea), where the blade is (there's one point where he chops with the flat of the blade). Also note that his feet are reversed in the "end stance" (in bagua, you steal a step by bringing your back foot behind your front foot, because you can do so without moving your upper body. You can then lunge forward with some faint possibility of surprise), and ask whether he can generate any power with that bizarre back leg with the toe pointed back (the illustration could equally show someone with front toes forward, back toes out 90 degrees, or the classic fencing stance). The "jolt the legs" phrase is probably best interpreted as using your legs and back to power the spear, rather than using only your arm muscles. Spears are heavy, and legs are strong.

I am personally unsure about the translators videos. Like you've pointed out, some of his interpretation seems awkward, clumsy, or strange. It also seems very rigid, he can definitely demonstrate slowly without making it "blocky". But all the same, I am thankful someone is taking the time and effort to translate these old manuals.

[KuKulzA28]

Currently reading 長鎗法選 and deeply analyzing very single bit.
Will share my thoughts when I am all done. Going to test the principles and techniques described with a compliant partner. I got two long ash poles, each with it's "spearhead" of foam padding and tennis-ball core wrapped in duct tape. It should have approximately the same heft and balance of a legit spear... After we're comfortable we'll put on the sparring helmets and test it non-compliant.

So far I have concluded that "inner-circle" and "outer-circle" is a bad translation. It's more like "inside my circle" or "outside my circle"... and it's better described in "modern martial arts terms" as my inside/centerline area and outside/back/flank.




Anyone have art work or period photos of old Chinese spears and/or spearheads?
Or, better yet, pictures from your own collections?


EDIT:
This is a pretty good series from Hong Kong, in this video of Xing Yi Quan (no surprise) there's spear work. They use the same terminology as 長鎗法選.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clgG8HkJELw

[Timo Nieminen]

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

So far I have concluded that "inner-circle" and "outer-circle" is a bad translation. It's more like "inside my circle" or "outside my circle"... and it's better described in "modern martial arts terms" as my inside/centerline area and outside/back/flank.

"Inside" and "outside" in modern unarmed martial arts are, in my experience, defined by inside or outside the lead hand. In the usual right-handed stance, with left leg and left hand forwards, to the left of my left hand is outside, to the right is inside. My arm being where it is, this corresponds to front of body/centreline being inside, back/flank being outside. It isn't the target area that matters; it's which side of the front arm the attacker comes in on.

Extending this to spear (as I did), it is which side of the spear which matters. Practically, there is little difference between aiming at the belly and aiming at the side if both attacks go in on the same side of the spear. "Inside my circle" and "outside my circle" sound OK as translations.