THE MARTINI HENRY.

RhysMichael · 29th May 2013, 11:50 PM

This may be one also

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 31st May 2013, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

This may be one also

Salaams RhysMichael ~Yes there are a lot of Martini Henry in Wilfred Thesigers books. This one could be either one of those or perhaps an Enfield black powder 303 which came just after the Martini Henry ~ Looking at his gunbelt they dont seem to be the big Martini Henry Cartridges but may be 303.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

RhysMichael · 31st May 2013, 06:25 PM

Great information and I really enjoyed this thread thank you for sharing the information Ibrahiim

kahnjar1 · 31st May 2013, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams RhysMichael ~Yes there are a lot of Martini Henry in Wilfred Thesigers books. This one could be either one of those or perhaps an Enfield black powder 303 which came just after the Martini Henry ~ Looking at his gunbelt they dont seem to be the big Martini Henry Cartridges but may be 303.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The Martini was also made in 303 cal

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 1st June 2013, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

The Martini was also made in 303 cal

Salaams, Never saw one ... though I'm sure you are right...

They carried the Martini Henry and the 303 black powder Enfield as well as the First and Second WW SMLE . including the WW2 jungle carbine version and the K98k German Army WW2 issue etc etc .

Both Bin Gabaisha and Bin Kabina are pictured carrying either the SMLE and Martini Henry.. as is Thesiger variously and he also gifted Martini Henrys to them. The picture may even be misleading in that the belt of ammo and the weapon are unrelated... and just for the picture.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kronckew · 1st June 2013, 07:37 PM

the martini-henry was present for one of the worst disasters in british military history. the defeat at islandlwana in 1879. one of the accepted reasons for the defeat of the british armed with these rifles, aside from arrogance, was the cartridge. the foil had a nasty habit of crushing, especially after the rifle had been fired rapidly and heated up, resulting in a massive jam. 1300 brits dead. one contested opinion was the quartermasters did not distribute ammo fast enough, and the troops ran out of ammo. an effect of the rifle's massive rate of fire (compared to earlier rifles). wellington broke the old guard at waterloo with three volleys, and he had smoothbore muskets.

it took more for the zulus. zulu distraction tactics and sheer stupidity of lord chelmsford and his officers ensured the brits were too widely separated for the martini to be effective.

at rourke's drift at the end of the battle of islandlwana, 4000 zulu attacked 139 brits with martini's. chard made better use of his troops behind primitive defences. he repelled the zulu by more skilful use of the martini's firepower - with plenty of ammo. the movie zulu, while one of my favourites, and one that made michael caine a superstar, showed the zulu repeatedly engaging in hand to hand combat at the barriers. in truth, most of the zulu were killed at 400-600 yards. the martini in skilled hands handled correctly showed what it could do. (the zulu had about a thousand rifles and some ammo themselves, having borrowed them earlier in the day, thus actually being better equipped than the brits. but they were not proficient with them. most were not at that later battle anyway.) the zulu king had told his brother not to attack any fortified positions. his brother ignored that at the drift.

the thin cartridge walls were thickened in later production runs.

the rifles are still being made. not only in the west for enthusiasts, but in pakistan where they have been skillfully copied by hand for a hundred years or so. (tho the ak-47 has become even more popular)

it even comes in pistol:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 2nd June 2013, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

the martini-henry was present for one of the worst disasters in british military history. the defeat at islandlwana in 1879. one of the accepted reasons for the defeat of the british armed with these rifles, aside from arrogance, was the cartridge. the foil had a nasty habit of crushing, especially after the rifle had been fired rapidly and heated up, resulting in a massive jam. 1300 brits dead. one contested opinion was the quartermasters did not distribute ammo fast enough, and the troops ran out of ammo. an effect of the rifle's massive rate of fire (compared to earlier rifles). wellington broke the old guard at waterloo with three volleys, and he had smoothbore muskets.

it took more for the zulus. zulu distraction tactics and sheer stupidity of lord chelmsford and his officers ensured the brits were too widely separated for the martini to be effective.

at rourke's drift at the end of the battle of islandlwana, 4000 zulu attacked 139 brits with martini's. chard made better use of his troops behind primitive defences. he repelled the zulu by more skilful use of the martini's firepower - with plenty of ammo. the movie zulu, while one of my favourites, and one that made michael caine a superstar, showed the zulu repeatedly engaging in hand to hand combat at the barriers. in truth, most of the zulu were killed at 400-600 yards. the martini in skilled hands handled correctly showed what it could do. (the zulu had about a thousand rifles and some ammo themselves, having borrowed them earlier in the day, thus actually being better equipped than the brits. but they were not proficient with them. most were not at that later battle anyway.) the zulu king had told his brother not to attack any fortified positions. his brother ignored that at the drift.

the thin cartridge walls were thickened in later production runs.

the rifles are still being made. not only in the west for enthusiasts, but in pakistan where they have been skillfully copied by hand for a hundred years or so. (tho the ak-47 has become even more popular)

it even comes in pistol:

Salaams ~ Although its full of inacuracies Rourkes Drift "The Film" is still worth watching...I find myself saying no they didnt do that or yes thats accurate of no they didn't sing that... etc etc

The power of the Martini Henry was incredible being able to penetrate thick trees and walls and with the full rate of fire at 21 rounds a minute it must have been devastating ~ as you point out at far greater range than on telly ! It could, in fact, knock a man off his horse at 1,000 yards. Thats the first time I've seen a pistol like that Enfield...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

kronckew · 3rd June 2013, 06:26 AM

wa'alaikum salaam, ibrahiim

zulu indeed has many inaccuracies. first off they were not a welsh
regiment yet. i still love the song 'men of harlech' with it's gleaming spearpoints.

...and hook was not a drunken scoundrel. and many more of course.

the impressive displays of the impi shield wall on the top of the surrounding hills always gives me a laugh. they did not have enough zulus, so they nailed about 10 shield cut-outs to poles with a real zulu either end and they now had 5 times the 'man' power

they re-used previously 'dead' zulus in the closeup crowd shots. i heard the zulus had a grand old time making the movie.

the final battle scene at the redoubt with the spitting bugler & volley fire scene is my favourite, as is the narrative at the very end with men of harlech again in the background. i watch it every time it comes on TV (and have the dvd). i've seen it dozens if not a hundred times. in spite of, and maybe because of, the inaccuracies, it is still one of the most stirring movies.

i was highly amused when i saw 'gladiator' (the russel crowe one in 2000) and heard the chanting germans in the initial battle scene. the use of the zulu singing sound track was a tribute.

Ngithanda isiZulu. Hamba kahle!

29th May 2013, 11:50 PM	#1
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	This may be one also Attached Images

1st June 2013, 07:37 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	the martini-henry was present for one of the worst disasters in british military history. the defeat at islandlwana in 1879. one of the accepted reasons for the defeat of the british armed with these rifles, aside from arrogance, was the cartridge. the foil had a nasty habit of crushing, especially after the rifle had been fired rapidly and heated up, resulting in a massive jam. 1300 brits dead. one contested opinion was the quartermasters did not distribute ammo fast enough, and the troops ran out of ammo. an effect of the rifle's massive rate of fire (compared to earlier rifles). wellington broke the old guard at waterloo with three volleys, and he had smoothbore muskets. it took more for the zulus. zulu distraction tactics and sheer stupidity of lord chelmsford and his officers ensured the brits were too widely separated for the martini to be effective. at rourke's drift at the end of the battle of islandlwana, 4000 zulu attacked 139 brits with martini's. chard made better use of his troops behind primitive defences. he repelled the zulu by more skilful use of the martini's firepower - with plenty of ammo. the movie zulu, while one of my favourites, and one that made michael caine a superstar, showed the zulu repeatedly engaging in hand to hand combat at the barriers. in truth, most of the zulu were killed at 400-600 yards. the martini in skilled hands handled correctly showed what it could do. (the zulu had about a thousand rifles and some ammo themselves, having borrowed them earlier in the day, thus actually being better equipped than the brits. but they were not proficient with them. most were not at that later battle anyway.) the zulu king had told his brother not to attack any fortified positions. his brother ignored that at the drift. the thin cartridge walls were thickened in later production runs. the rifles are still being made. not only in the west for enthusiasts, but in pakistan where they have been skillfully copied by hand for a hundred years or so. (tho the ak-47 has become even more popular) it even comes in pistol: Attached Images

31st May 2013, 06:25 PM	#3
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	Great information and I really enjoyed this thread thank you for sharing the information Ibrahiim

3rd June 2013, 06:26 AM	#8
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	wa'alaikum salaam, ibrahiim zulu indeed has many inaccuracies. first off they were not a welsh regiment yet. i still love the song 'men of harlech' with it's gleaming spearpoints. ...and hook was not a drunken scoundrel. and many more of course. the impressive displays of the impi shield wall on the top of the surrounding hills always gives me a laugh. they did not have enough zulus, so they nailed about 10 shield cut-outs to poles with a real zulu either end and they now had 5 times the 'man' power they re-used previously 'dead' zulus in the closeup crowd shots. i heard the zulus had a grand old time making the movie. the final battle scene at the redoubt with the spitting bugler & volley fire scene is my favourite, as is the narrative at the very end with men of harlech again in the background. i watch it every time it comes on TV (and have the dvd). i've seen it dozens if not a hundred times. in spite of, and maybe because of, the inaccuracies, it is still one of the most stirring movies. i was highly amused when i saw 'gladiator' (the russel crowe one in 2000) and heard the chanting germans in the initial battle scene. the use of the zulu singing sound track was a tribute. Ngithanda isiZulu. Hamba kahle!