Article: Notes on development of modern sabers - Role of Eastern Europe & the Hussars

Radu Transylvanicus · 2nd January 2005, 11:34 AM

Yannis, why do I have the same issue with all Greeks : hey, Radu did you knew that comes from the Greek word ,,so on and so on,, ...

dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ...

,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek

) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ...

Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...

Yannis · 3rd January 2005, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

...dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ...

My dear friend, I have seen the movie and it was big fun.

Etymology is a tool that help us to understand not only the origin of a word but sometimes the origin of an item. I didnt said "machaira" has greek origin, I just wonder if it is Thracian because it was widespread in ancient greek world. Also decent vocabularies dont have a certain etymology for the word "machaira". But it is still alive with almost the same meaning in greek language.

Sure, I dont take personal that some tenths thousands words of most european languages have greek origin. It was not my fault

But it was a great help in my studies

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

... ,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek

) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ...

Maybe in the case of this particular Khevsur sword it was more than mode. Maybe the same sword has Polish - Hungarian origin and found in the hands of Khevsur people who ornate it this way. Who knows...

ariel · 3rd January 2005, 04:28 PM

[ From Radu

Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...[/QUOTE]

Reply:That would be true if Estocs were used as true swords. In fact, they were used as sort of lances; those were aplenty in the Asian armamentarium.

Radu Transylvanicus · 3rd January 2005, 10:38 PM

Ariel any concrete examples of Asian lance-swords, perhaps hilted ( Indian bhuj or angkus or such dont count I think...)

TVV · 9th January 2005, 02:12 AM

Radu: I promised you a picture and here it is. It is a picture from a Byzantine manuscript depicting Bulgars slaying Christian soldiers, a few of them holding curved sabres. It dates to the seventh or eighth century. The earliest curved sabres in Eastern Europe, dating ba,ck to the 670s, are found in the burrials of nomads from Central Asia: Avars and Bulgars. I think there are also sinilar examples found at approximately the same time in Northern Caucasus that are associated with the Hazars. Since before coming to Eastern Europe all of these turkic tribes inhabited the steppes north of the Caucasus mountains, I guess this proves your main point about the lands of the origin of this weapon and the significance of Eastern Europe in its spread all over the continent. Only the date of the intorduction of the sabre is a little earlier, and the Magyars were not the first ones to carry it.
Regards,
Teodor

Radu Transylvanicus · 9th January 2005, 10:00 AM

Priyatel Teodor,

When is this iconoclastic painting dated again ?A bit too ,,fully matured,, orthodox style with very developed christianic characters for 500s a.C. , dont you think ? personal opinion ...
As far as the birth of the sword, I agree with an earliear date set than originally mentioned but if not backed by hard evidence remains just supposition, even though we both believe in just as much and were convinced it was the case... On the other hand, however, I am rather keen to lean towards an Alanic versus an Avaric transitional origin (debated and agreed this already with our ,,brother in arms,, Jim McD. , earliear...) .
Any pre-scimitars, perhaps of Turkic origin, you can think of in any museums that would predate the ones we know already as 9th century and were found on European teritory, including Ukraine or Turkey ?

Radu

TVV · 10th January 2005, 01:01 AM

Oh no, deffinitely not 500 AC, it is I believe from the late 8th century. There are miniatures from the middle of the 9th century in the Chronicle of Ioan Skilica, depicting the Byzantine emperor Leo V Armenian (813-820) with a sabre, of which I am unable to find a scan right now. It would be strange for an Eastern Roman Emperor to be depicted with a weapon that was just introduced by the enemies of his Empire.
I agree with the Alanic origin, since there are linguistic evidences that the word sabre originated from an Alanic root: "shab" meaning an edged weapon in thast language. The Magyars appeared in Eastern Europe in the beggining of the 900s, or early 10th century. Since there are examples from the 9th century from the Balkans and what is now Hungary, it is clear I believe that this weapon was introduced to these places by the Avars, Bulgars and the other Turkic tribes. It is highly unlikely that the Bulgars for example came up with the design of the sabre after moving to the Balkans, so it should have been with them at least since the 7th century. Whether the sabre appeared at about that time in the Eurasian Steppes or earlier, it is hard to say.
Best Regards, as always,
Teodor

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2005, 04:44 AM

Just a recap of the development of the sabre from current notes:

"...the very long, curved, narrow battle axe of Middle Kingdom Egypt (1990-1798 BC) may have been the prototype for the curved swords which the popular imagination always associates with Islam. Curved bronze swords had been in use for at least two millennia before Islam ".
"Swords of Islam" by Anthony North
in "Swords & Hilt Weapons (ed.M.Coe,
N.Y.1989), p.137
"...our knowledge of the sword of the Avars has recently been augmented by a new reconstruction of the Pereshchepina sword, which shows that it had a long straight blade and a ring pommeled hilt with vestigial quillons".
"China and Central Asia"
by Thom Richardson
(Coe, ibid.p.176)
"...the curved cavalry sword , however, probably originated in Turkestan. Perhaps the earliest representation of such a weapon appears in a frescoe from Sorcuq, usually assumed to date from the 8th century, examples excavated from graves can be dated from the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries".
Richardson (op.cit.p.176)
Richardson states further, "...the curved sword was not diagnostic of a different method of warfare, nor did it oust the straight, single edged sword in Central Asia".
On p.180 he states: "...in all likelihood, the curved sword was introduced by the Uighurs. This Turkish people, originally Manicheans, were converted to Buddhism in the mid 9th century and established a kingdom centred on Turfan and Kucha. Earliest examples of these curved swords belong to Khirghiz finds of the 10th century".
* it is noted that the frescoe which represents an event of 8th c. probably was painted much later, possibly 300 years.

This data illustrates the rather sketchy speculation on the development of the sabre as a weapon form, however it does seem to clarify that the Avars seem to have used straight blade swords. This seems likely as they are thought to have actually been the Ruan-Ruan who were driven from Mongolian regions c.550 AD and thier ring hilt swords were of probably influenced by the huanshoe dao ring pommel straight swords of Han empire China.

The Alano-Magyar sabres previously discussed from northern Caucasian regions and shown in Lebedynsky ("Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" ,p.18) also include the familiar 'sword of Charlemagne' which is a sabre of 9th c. slight curved blade and extended yelman.

In "The Lore of Arms" (William Reid, 1976) it is stated, "...curved swords were common in Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages, but in the west the medieval form known is the falchion".
The falchion seems to have been essentially a straight back sword with a widened and bellied blade for slashing as the sabre.

At this point, while both heavy straight swords were in use, along with variations of sabres, it would seem that primary development of curving blades was taking place in the Islamic sphere. In "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski ("Art, Arms and Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol.I, 1979-80, p.222), it is stated, "...the first examples to find thier way to Poland might have been imported Turkish products, or Hungarian ones patterned on Turkish model, and thier appearance in large numbers should be dated from the beginning of the 16th century.In 1505, the municipal council of Cracow granted swordmakers the right to mount and furbish sabres".

OK, I didn't say a 'brief' recap

!!
I just wanted to add some references that might help in our discussion on development of the sabre. It seems to me that the sabre has existed in varied forms concurrent with other forms of sword, and the more curved and parabolic forms of sabre gained popularity as noted from about 16th c. onward. It also seems generally held that the cavalry tactics and use of the sabre evolved in Eastern Europe influenced by Turkish horsemen and likely others from Balkan regions.

Best regards,
Jim

9th January 2005, 02:12 AM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Radu: I promised you a picture and here it is. It is a picture from a Byzantine manuscript depicting Bulgars slaying Christian soldiers, a few of them holding curved sabres. It dates to the seventh or eighth century. The earliest curved sabres in Eastern Europe, dating ba,ck to the 670s, are found in the burrials of nomads from Central Asia: Avars and Bulgars. I think there are also sinilar examples found at approximately the same time in Northern Caucasus that are associated with the Hazars. Since before coming to Eastern Europe all of these turkic tribes inhabited the steppes north of the Caucasus mountains, I guess this proves your main point about the lands of the origin of this weapon and the significance of Eastern Europe in its spread all over the continent. Only the date of the intorduction of the sabre is a little earlier, and the Magyars were not the first ones to carry it. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

9th January 2005, 10:00 AM	#6
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Priyatel Teodor, When is this iconoclastic painting dated again ?A bit too ,,fully matured,, orthodox style with very developed christianic characters for 500s a.C. , dont you think ? personal opinion ... As far as the birth of the sword, I agree with an earliear date set than originally mentioned but if not backed by hard evidence remains just supposition, even though we both believe in just as much and were convinced it was the case... On the other hand, however, I am rather keen to lean towards an Alanic versus an Avaric transitional origin (debated and agreed this already with our ,,brother in arms,, Jim McD. , earliear...) . Any pre-scimitars, perhaps of Turkic origin, you can think of in any museums that would predate the ones we know already as 9th century and were found on European teritory, including Ukraine or Turkey ? Radu Last edited by Radu Transylvanicus; 9th January 2005 at 10:22 AM.

10th January 2005, 01:01 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Oh no, deffinitely not 500 AC, it is I believe from the late 8th century. There are miniatures from the middle of the 9th century in the Chronicle of Ioan Skilica, depicting the Byzantine emperor Leo V Armenian (813-820) with a sabre, of which I am unable to find a scan right now. It would be strange for an Eastern Roman Emperor to be depicted with a weapon that was just introduced by the enemies of his Empire. I agree with the Alanic origin, since there are linguistic evidences that the word sabre originated from an Alanic root: "shab" meaning an edged weapon in thast language. The Magyars appeared in Eastern Europe in the beggining of the 900s, or early 10th century. Since there are examples from the 9th century from the Balkans and what is now Hungary, it is clear I believe that this weapon was introduced to these places by the Avars, Bulgars and the other Turkic tribes. It is highly unlikely that the Bulgars for example came up with the design of the sabre after moving to the Balkans, so it should have been with them at least since the 7th century. Whether the sabre appeared at about that time in the Eurasian Steppes or earlier, it is hard to say. Best Regards, as always, Teodor Last edited by TVV; 10th January 2005 at 02:00 AM.

2nd January 2005, 11:34 AM	#1
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Yannis, why do I have the same issue with all Greeks : hey, Radu did you knew that comes from the Greek word ,,so on and so on,, ... dont take it personal but it becomes such a funny clichee when Greeks are negotiating the origins of everything ... it was even the theme of very succesful Hollywood movie two years ago : ,,My big fat Greek wedding,, ... but you have my promise nevertheless I will research (or try at least) the word ,,machaira,, ... ,,The boot hilt,, in the Caucasus or in Orient in general is something like our earliear ,, boomerang yataghan theory,, (am sure you remember that since it was so pro-Greek ) ... Eastearn Europe took influence from the western Asia but gave back a lot , believe it or not ... Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...

3rd January 2005, 04:28 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	[ From Radu Ariel : thank you for the very pertinent notes seems to me we should open a ,,koncerz, mec, kontchar,, open house round table discussion ... but if curved swords come from around Asia Minor I believe the Estoc to be a European creation at first glance ...[/QUOTE] Reply:That would be true if Estocs were used as true swords. In fact, they were used as sort of lances; those were aplenty in the Asian armamentarium.

3rd January 2005, 10:38 PM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Ariel any concrete examples of Asian lance-swords, perhaps hilted ( Indian bhuj or angkus or such dont count I think...)

10th January 2005, 04:44 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Just a recap of the development of the sabre from current notes: "...the very long, curved, narrow battle axe of Middle Kingdom Egypt (1990-1798 BC) may have been the prototype for the curved swords which the popular imagination always associates with Islam. Curved bronze swords had been in use for at least two millennia before Islam ". "Swords of Islam" by Anthony North in "Swords & Hilt Weapons (ed.M.Coe, N.Y.1989), p.137 "...our knowledge of the sword of the Avars has recently been augmented by a new reconstruction of the Pereshchepina sword, which shows that it had a long straight blade and a ring pommeled hilt with vestigial quillons". "China and Central Asia" by Thom Richardson (Coe, ibid.p.176) "...the curved cavalry sword , however, probably originated in Turkestan. Perhaps the earliest representation of such a weapon appears in a frescoe from Sorcuq, usually assumed to date from the 8th century, examples excavated from graves can be dated from the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries". Richardson (op.cit.p.176) Richardson states further, "...the curved sword was not diagnostic of a different method of warfare, nor did it oust the straight, single edged sword in Central Asia". On p.180 he states: "...in all likelihood, the curved sword was introduced by the Uighurs. This Turkish people, originally Manicheans, were converted to Buddhism in the mid 9th century and established a kingdom centred on Turfan and Kucha. Earliest examples of these curved swords belong to Khirghiz finds of the 10th century". * it is noted that the frescoe which represents an event of 8th c. probably was painted much later, possibly 300 years. This data illustrates the rather sketchy speculation on the development of the sabre as a weapon form, however it does seem to clarify that the Avars seem to have used straight blade swords. This seems likely as they are thought to have actually been the Ruan-Ruan who were driven from Mongolian regions c.550 AD and thier ring hilt swords were of probably influenced by the huanshoe dao ring pommel straight swords of Han empire China. The Alano-Magyar sabres previously discussed from northern Caucasian regions and shown in Lebedynsky ("Les Armes Traditionelles de l'Europe Centrale" ,p.18) also include the familiar 'sword of Charlemagne' which is a sabre of 9th c. slight curved blade and extended yelman. In "The Lore of Arms" (William Reid, 1976) it is stated, "...curved swords were common in Eastern Europe in the Middle Ages, but in the west the medieval form known is the falchion". The falchion seems to have been essentially a straight back sword with a widened and bellied blade for slashing as the sabre. At this point, while both heavy straight swords were in use, along with variations of sabres, it would seem that primary development of curving blades was taking place in the Islamic sphere. In "Polish Sabres: Their Origins and Evolution" by Jan Ostrowski ("Art, Arms and Armour" ed. Robert Held, Vol.I, 1979-80, p.222), it is stated, "...the first examples to find thier way to Poland might have been imported Turkish products, or Hungarian ones patterned on Turkish model, and thier appearance in large numbers should be dated from the beginning of the 16th century.In 1505, the municipal council of Cracow granted swordmakers the right to mount and furbish sabres". OK, I didn't say a 'brief' recap !! I just wanted to add some references that might help in our discussion on development of the sabre. It seems to me that the sabre has existed in varied forms concurrent with other forms of sword, and the more curved and parabolic forms of sabre gained popularity as noted from about 16th c. onward. It also seems generally held that the cavalry tactics and use of the sabre evolved in Eastern Europe influenced by Turkish horsemen and likely others from Balkan regions. Best regards, Jim