Sliding weights

Jens Nordlunde · 17th October 2005, 02:08 PM

In ‘The Indian Antiquary’, August 1873, page 217, W.F.Sinclair writes:

A common weapon among Hindustanis and Musalmans is a long steel rod with three or four small rings sliding on it. These, slipping forward as the weapon descends, add force to the blow, which is far more severe than might be supposed from the slender appearance of the weapon. It is also a good guard against sword-cuts.

Andrew · 17th October 2005, 02:14 PM

Hi Jens.

Interesting. Have you ever seen such a weapon?

How was your trip?

Best,
A

Jens Nordlunde · 17th October 2005, 02:54 PM

Hi Andrew,

I am not sure, as I seem vaguely to remember such a weapon. If I have seen one, it is very long ago, but from the description I think it must be a mace without a head, only with a rather long and slender haft with sliding weights. The weapon Sinclair describes is interesting, but if they made such a weapon, why not a mace with sliding weights?

The trip was terrific, we saw the reserves at V&A, but it is with time like with fire, it is a good servant but a brutal master. When we arrived we had hours ahead of us, but suddenly the time was running out fast. We did however see a lot of things, amongst other the Kitchener collection, which is fantastic. We met Robert Elgood and Jonathan Barrett, but again, the time – rather frustrating I must say. I hope to see them again next year when we go to England once more.

At the V&A I did notice something about some weapons from Kutch, and will write about it later.

Oh yes, I forgot to mention, how can a trip like that not be a success, when you have the best guide of all

.

Best

Jens

kronckew · 20th July 2016, 03:51 PM

this thread was linked to in another thread today about a blade with sliding balls incorporated.

as i read this thread (post 31) there appeared a rapier with a sliding section hailed as a sliding weight sword example. this is incorrect as it was actually created to solve a completely different problem.

as rapiers became fashionable, they increased in length to almost silly proportions.m some wielders went accompanied by a servant that would help them draw and re-sheath the blade as needed.

numbers of gentlemen carrying these long swords were quite a tripping hazard and cumbersome to manoeuvrer in crowds, and could actually provoke duels. laws were passed to limit blade lengths. i recall london set a maximum BLADE length of 40 inches.

guards at the city gates would actually measure blades, and if found too long the owner could be fined and/or his blade snapped off to make it fit the regs.

this sword posted earlier was a design to circumvent the law, as it's long blade was slid back to allow it to be sheathed without requiring a servant while also becoming a regulation blade length with a long grip to bypass the regs - which did not specify an overall length.

if drawn in anger, the blade was slid out and locked in place rather them sliding in and out freely.

overly long rapiers with thrusting only type blades were an affectation of society that died out fairly quickly - that's why so few examples exist. they didn't really work well in a duel, gentlemanly rules of engagement which covered the flaws thankfully were rarely carried over to military blades that stuck to a more practical carry & use length suitable for the no rules melee of hand to hand desperate combat.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th July 2016, 04:43 PM

Interesting discussions we had in the good ol' days

.

kronckew · 20th July 2016, 04:45 PM

luckily we keep on learning instead of stagnating.

Jim McDougall · 20th July 2016, 05:56 PM

Excellent Kronckew!!! Indeed, we DO keep learning, and mostly because of those here who contribute and share the remarkable knowledge they hold in their specialized fields. Also, that members like yourself revive old threads and topics like this one, bringing into them new evidence or simply new avenues of research on them.
Jens, we did have amazing discussions back in those days, and it always further amazes me at how far we have all grown because of them.

During these earlier discussions, it seems that the affectation of the 'pearls' in blade channels was included and found to have been from a Persian decorative innovation on blades. It was at some point transmitted to both Indian and Chinese cultural spheres, where they were popularized in recognized degree.

I do recall in rapier discussions several years ago the case of these 'adjustable' blades was brought up and as noted the blade length had become a 'legal' dilemma in Spain and I believe others. I believe this was also the basis for the folding knives well known as 'navaja'

It was interesting here to see discussions involving members who are sorely missed as well who have been long absent, and the depth of the discourse which brought examples, cases and empirical data to light versus some of the fascinating 'lore'.

Well done, thank you!

fernando · 21st July 2016, 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

... as rapiers became fashionable, they increased in length to almost silly proportions.m some wielders went accompanied by a servant that would help them draw and re-sheath the blade as needed....

I am truly amazed with such resource ... a sword drawing servant; would never dream of it. Do you racall the source where you read such passage, Wayne ?

17th October 2005, 02:54 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Andrew, I am not sure, as I seem vaguely to remember such a weapon. If I have seen one, it is very long ago, but from the description I think it must be a mace without a head, only with a rather long and slender haft with sliding weights. The weapon Sinclair describes is interesting, but if they made such a weapon, why not a mace with sliding weights? The trip was terrific, we saw the reserves at V&A, but it is with time like with fire, it is a good servant but a brutal master. When we arrived we had hours ahead of us, but suddenly the time was running out fast. We did however see a lot of things, amongst other the Kitchener collection, which is fantastic. We met Robert Elgood and Jonathan Barrett, but again, the time – rather frustrating I must say. I hope to see them again next year when we go to England once more. At the V&A I did notice something about some weapons from Kutch, and will write about it later. Oh yes, I forgot to mention, how can a trip like that not be a success, when you have the best guide of all. Best Jens Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 17th October 2005 at 03:33 PM.

17th October 2005, 02:08 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	In ‘The Indian Antiquary’, August 1873, page 217, W.F.Sinclair writes: A common weapon among Hindustanis and Musalmans is a long steel rod with three or four small rings sliding on it. These, slipping forward as the weapon descends, add force to the blow, which is far more severe than might be supposed from the slender appearance of the weapon. It is also a good guard against sword-cuts.

17th October 2005, 02:14 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Hi Jens. Interesting. Have you ever seen such a weapon? How was your trip? Best, A

20th July 2016, 03:51 PM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	this thread was linked to in another thread today about a blade with sliding balls incorporated. as i read this thread (post 31) there appeared a rapier with a sliding section hailed as a sliding weight sword example. this is incorrect as it was actually created to solve a completely different problem. as rapiers became fashionable, they increased in length to almost silly proportions.m some wielders went accompanied by a servant that would help them draw and re-sheath the blade as needed. numbers of gentlemen carrying these long swords were quite a tripping hazard and cumbersome to manoeuvrer in crowds, and could actually provoke duels. laws were passed to limit blade lengths. i recall london set a maximum BLADE length of 40 inches. guards at the city gates would actually measure blades, and if found too long the owner could be fined and/or his blade snapped off to make it fit the regs. this sword posted earlier was a design to circumvent the law, as it's long blade was slid back to allow it to be sheathed without requiring a servant while also becoming a regulation blade length with a long grip to bypass the regs - which did not specify an overall length. if drawn in anger, the blade was slid out and locked in place rather them sliding in and out freely. overly long rapiers with thrusting only type blades were an affectation of society that died out fairly quickly - that's why so few examples exist. they didn't really work well in a duel, gentlemanly rules of engagement which covered the flaws thankfully were rarely carried over to military blades that stuck to a more practical carry & use length suitable for the no rules melee of hand to hand desperate combat.

20th July 2016, 04:43 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Interesting discussions we had in the good ol' days .

20th July 2016, 04:45 PM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	luckily we keep on learning instead of stagnating.

20th July 2016, 05:56 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Excellent Kronckew!!! Indeed, we DO keep learning, and mostly because of those here who contribute and share the remarkable knowledge they hold in their specialized fields. Also, that members like yourself revive old threads and topics like this one, bringing into them new evidence or simply new avenues of research on them. Jens, we did have amazing discussions back in those days, and it always further amazes me at how far we have all grown because of them. During these earlier discussions, it seems that the affectation of the 'pearls' in blade channels was included and found to have been from a Persian decorative innovation on blades. It was at some point transmitted to both Indian and Chinese cultural spheres, where they were popularized in recognized degree. I do recall in rapier discussions several years ago the case of these 'adjustable' blades was brought up and as noted the blade length had become a 'legal' dilemma in Spain and I believe others. I believe this was also the basis for the folding knives well known as 'navaja' It was interesting here to see discussions involving members who are sorely missed as well who have been long absent, and the depth of the discourse which brought examples, cases and empirical data to light versus some of the fascinating 'lore'. Well done, thank you!