Figural !

rasjid · 21st May 2013, 12:47 AM

Not sure about this one. The handle is wrapping like Jawa Demam but looks like a snake? Komodo or something the carver's thinking?

asomotif · 5th June 2014, 12:08 PM

picture taken last week at the Gemeente Museum Den Haag.

ganjawulung · 6th June 2014, 02:23 AM

Picture taken at Ganjawulung's Collection...

Gavin Nugent · 15th June 2014, 02:47 AM

One of my favorites.

Gavin

Rick · 15th June 2014, 03:39 AM

Almost reminds one of the Green Man from another culture .

Gavin Nugent · 28th June 2014, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Almost reminds one of the Green Man from another culture .

Vanna Ghiringhelli notes this fella as an unknown demon....can anyone quanitify this "Unknown Deman"

Gavin

VVV · 28th June 2014, 10:30 AM

Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha.
A better reference work for old keris and their original symbolism (as an alternative to the contemporary interpretations) is Kris disk by the late Karsten Sejr Jensen.

Michael

Sajen · 29th June 2014, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwordsAntiqueWeapons

One of my favorites.

Gavin

Hello Gavin,

here the brother of your hilt! I personally would call it a putra satu hilt in abstract form.

Regards,
Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 29th June 2014, 02:05 PM

I'm in complete agreement with you Michael, but I prefer to take the concepts of "truth", "fact", and "accuracy", just a little further.

There was an economist named Fritz Machlup. He was an Austrian, but he migrated to America before WWII.

He came up with the proposal that there was a "half-life of knowledge", this was given as the length of time that had to pass before half of the knowledge in any specific field was either shown to be untrue or was replaced with a more up-to-date version.

As time goes by the residual half of knowledge that remains from the initial degradation of the field becomes less and less so that eventually nothing, or perhaps almost nothing is left that can still be considered to be true.

Machlup died some time in the early 1960's, just about the time I was being taught about his ideas.

Not long ago a mathematician named Sam Arbesman published a book called "The Half-Life of Facts". Arbesman has demonstrated that the ideas that we accept as "facts" are slowly being replaced, and although we can never guess when any particular "fact" is going to go under, we can predict when half the facts in any specific field are going become out-dated.

An idea not dissimilar to Machlup's idea.

The accepted "facts" in any field have differing lives. Half the facts in the field of maths will be revised/replaced in about 9 or 10 years. Half the facts in the field of physics are good for about 13 years. And so on.

Now, with the keris, we're not dealing with perceived "facts" for most of the time, rather, we are dealing with opinions and beliefs.

I'm not at all sure how we can estimate the half-life of keris opinions, but I guess somebody who is much better at math than I am could come up with a formula. However, its probably not all that important how long our opinions and beliefs resist change, what is important is that we recognise that those opinions and beliefs will change, and that at some time in the future much, or most, of what we accept as "fact" today will have been demonstrated to be incorrect.

For this reason, I would most humbly suggest that none of us should become so entwined in our own beliefs and opinions that we are unable to give consideration to the beliefs and opinions of others.

Sajen · 29th June 2014, 02:44 PM

Three more Ramajala Tegal hilts from my collection.

VVV · 29th June 2014, 04:40 PM

Yes, Alan, this kind of postmodern criticism of the "one-truth-Enlightenment" has been going on much longer than 50 years now in the academia. Machlup and Arbesman are just two out of 100's.
However, for a discussion on a forum like this, and to be able to handle other "non-academic" everyday situations, I find it quite boring and nonconstructive to force all participants to write long disclaimers each time they state something. If it would be in an academic situation the accepted way would be first to have a method and theory discussion about these factors of skepticism and uncertainty to show that you are aware of them. And after that you would be allowed to state something and argue that it is valuable current knowledge. And then in the end you could write that you hope someone in the future will be able to add-on new knowledge and perhaps prove that you were wrong (like, for instance, Freud did).

If the moderators are afraid that the participants of this forum are not aware of this philosophical discussion, maybe they (David

) can write some kind of disclaimer for us all so we can keep the discussion going in each thread?

I think a statement like: "Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha" , which both contributes to the discussion but at the same time accepts the existence of alternative interpretations, is better suited to answer the level of a non-academic forum like this.

Michael

Jean · 2nd July 2014, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Gavin,

here the brother of your hilt! I personally would call it a putra satu hilt in abstract form.

Regards,
Detlef

I am with Sajen, these pieces apparently originate from East Java/ Madura and are locally called putrasatu (prince?), I show an older cousin....
Regards

VVV · 2nd July 2014, 09:57 AM

A beautiful hilt, Jean.
Yes, we all know about the term putrasatu, but that is what Alan referred to as "the understanding of present day Jawa". We were trying to go a bit deeper into the symbolism of this, and the related, hilts. Even if it is not possible to find a definitive answer it is still interesting to give it a joint try and perhaps find some probable clues.

Michael

21st May 2013, 12:47 AM	#1
rasjid Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Jakarta - Indonesia Posts: 114	Not sure about this one. The handle is wrapping like Jawa Demam but looks like a snake? Komodo or something the carver's thinking? Attached Images Last edited by rasjid; 21st May 2013 at 12:50 AM. Reason: potrait orientation

5th June 2014, 12:08 PM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,228	picture taken last week at the Gemeente Museum Den Haag. Attached Images

6th June 2014, 02:23 AM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Cirebon Hilt Picture taken at Ganjawulung's Collection... Attached Images

15th June 2014, 02:47 AM	#4
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	One of my favorites. Gavin Attached Images

29th June 2014, 02:44 PM	#10
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,166	Three more Ramajala Tegal hilts from my collection. Attached Images

15th June 2014, 03:39 AM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	Almost reminds one of the Green Man from another culture .

28th June 2014, 10:30 AM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha. A better reference work for old keris and their original symbolism (as an alternative to the contemporary interpretations) is Kris disk by the late Karsten Sejr Jensen. Michael

29th June 2014, 02:05 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	I'm in complete agreement with you Michael, but I prefer to take the concepts of "truth", "fact", and "accuracy", just a little further. There was an economist named Fritz Machlup. He was an Austrian, but he migrated to America before WWII. He came up with the proposal that there was a "half-life of knowledge", this was given as the length of time that had to pass before half of the knowledge in any specific field was either shown to be untrue or was replaced with a more up-to-date version. As time goes by the residual half of knowledge that remains from the initial degradation of the field becomes less and less so that eventually nothing, or perhaps almost nothing is left that can still be considered to be true. Machlup died some time in the early 1960's, just about the time I was being taught about his ideas. Not long ago a mathematician named Sam Arbesman published a book called "The Half-Life of Facts". Arbesman has demonstrated that the ideas that we accept as "facts" are slowly being replaced, and although we can never guess when any particular "fact" is going to go under, we can predict when half the facts in any specific field are going become out-dated. An idea not dissimilar to Machlup's idea. The accepted "facts" in any field have differing lives. Half the facts in the field of maths will be revised/replaced in about 9 or 10 years. Half the facts in the field of physics are good for about 13 years. And so on. Now, with the keris, we're not dealing with perceived "facts" for most of the time, rather, we are dealing with opinions and beliefs. I'm not at all sure how we can estimate the half-life of keris opinions, but I guess somebody who is much better at math than I am could come up with a formula. However, its probably not all that important how long our opinions and beliefs resist change, what is important is that we recognise that those opinions and beliefs will change, and that at some time in the future much, or most, of what we accept as "fact" today will have been demonstrated to be incorrect. For this reason, I would most humbly suggest that none of us should become so entwined in our own beliefs and opinions that we are unable to give consideration to the beliefs and opinions of others.

29th June 2014, 04:40 PM	#11
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, Alan, this kind of postmodern criticism of the "one-truth-Enlightenment" has been going on much longer than 50 years now in the academia. Machlup and Arbesman are just two out of 100's. However, for a discussion on a forum like this, and to be able to handle other "non-academic" everyday situations, I find it quite boring and nonconstructive to force all participants to write long disclaimers each time they state something. If it would be in an academic situation the accepted way would be first to have a method and theory discussion about these factors of skepticism and uncertainty to show that you are aware of them. And after that you would be allowed to state something and argue that it is valuable current knowledge. And then in the end you could write that you hope someone in the future will be able to add-on new knowledge and perhaps prove that you were wrong (like, for instance, Freud did). If the moderators are afraid that the participants of this forum are not aware of this philosophical discussion, maybe they (David ) can write some kind of disclaimer for us all so we can keep the discussion going in each thread? I think a statement like: "Most probably it was supposed to be a Yaksha" , which both contributes to the discussion but at the same time accepts the existence of alternative interpretations, is better suited to answer the level of a non-academic forum like this. Michael

2nd July 2014, 09:57 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	A beautiful hilt, Jean. Yes, we all know about the term putrasatu, but that is what Alan referred to as "the understanding of present day Jawa". We were trying to go a bit deeper into the symbolism of this, and the related, hilts. Even if it is not possible to find a definitive answer it is still interesting to give it a joint try and perhaps find some probable clues. Michael