Caribbean Spanish colonial cuphilt rapier

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2013, 08:21 PM

Absolutely perfectly explained Nando!
The Toledo reputation long established had remained, while the Castilian economy was in virtual collapse in the 17th and well through 18th. The German smiths, i.e. Coel, had also been present among Spanish makers, but the industry itself basically deferred to Solingen.

Regarding the arrow mark on the bilbo, while I can only estimate without an image, I would suggest that it may have developed from that mark of crossed arrows used by J Konigs (1587-1607) or further to the other chronology the Clauberg group (1847-1866). Obviously the 'bilbo' as a military 'arming' type sword seems to have been used from late in the first half of the 18th c. into the 19th, and saw extensive Spanish colonial use in Cuba, and Gulf regions with eventual move into interior New Spain.
It has been well established that Solingen produced many blades for the Spanish and destined for colonial mounts from around 1760s possibly even earlier. Many were of course those with 'Spanish motto' and the familiar hexagon section 'dragoon' blades.

I dont know which German smiths were in the Americas, but am curious on more on this. Perhaps related to Eickhorn who was a main supplier of swords and blades to Latin America by end of the 19thc.

Returning to this magnificent example arming rapier, I would say it likely is from first quarter 18th c. and as noted certainly Caribbean. While obviously the hilt is well crafted it is known that Spanish artisans were by this time well established in the ports of call on the Spanish Main.
To add a dash of literary romanticism

this is the period immediately following the end of the 'Golden Age' of piracy, and in regions where the Spanish Main was ever active, well within that of the immortal work of Stevenson, "Treasure Island". Spanish officers in the New World still used these kinds of swords while at sea as well as ashore, and it is well known despite the often noted 'cavalry' character in blade length. I believe this was largely in that officers used swords in directing and command, and these were well visible, as officers were not typically in the melee where short, stout blades were more effective.

Well done Captain Mark!!!

fernando · 18th May 2013, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Well done Captain Mark!!!

Time we promote him to Admiral

M ELEY · 18th May 2013, 06:42 AM

Yay! Do I get to wear a big, feathered hat, like Barbossa?!

Thank you gents for all of the important comments you made. It's what makes collecting so addictive to me: the history behind the piece. I remember in a previous thread where we had shown a direct correlation with these arming swords used by officers (and bilbo cavalry types by soldiers) on both the Spanish and Portuguese treasure fleets. I wanted a definitive naval connection and we were able to pin it down for sure!

Jim, I do know that the firm of Schimmelbusch and Joest came to Central and South America around 1810's and had researched them (they were the swordsmiths that had made that old lion-hilt Spanish broadsword ca. 1800 I used to own). They were active in the Spanish colonies, but were also well known for their other contracts, including the m1811 Prussian cavalry swords as well as Austrian broadsword/cavalry types of the period. It remains unclear to me, though, if they were the makers or just the merchants of such. Kind of like the Birmingham gun 'makers', who were actually just peddlers but went so far as to mark the weapons as their own!

18th May 2013, 06:42 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,205	Yay! Do I get to wear a big, feathered hat, like Barbossa?! Thank you gents for all of the important comments you made. It's what makes collecting so addictive to me: the history behind the piece. I remember in a previous thread where we had shown a direct correlation with these arming swords used by officers (and bilbo cavalry types by soldiers) on both the Spanish and Portuguese treasure fleets. I wanted a definitive naval connection and we were able to pin it down for sure! Jim, I do know that the firm of Schimmelbusch and Joest came to Central and South America around 1810's and had researched them (they were the swordsmiths that had made that old lion-hilt Spanish broadsword ca. 1800 I used to own). They were active in the Spanish colonies, but were also well known for their other contracts, including the m1811 Prussian cavalry swords as well as Austrian broadsword/cavalry types of the period. It remains unclear to me, though, if they were the makers or just the merchants of such. Kind of like the Birmingham gun 'makers', who were actually just peddlers but went so far as to mark the weapons as their own! Last edited by M ELEY; 18th May 2013 at 07:33 AM.

17th May 2013, 08:21 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Absolutely perfectly explained Nando! The Toledo reputation long established had remained, while the Castilian economy was in virtual collapse in the 17th and well through 18th. The German smiths, i.e. Coel, had also been present among Spanish makers, but the industry itself basically deferred to Solingen. Regarding the arrow mark on the bilbo, while I can only estimate without an image, I would suggest that it may have developed from that mark of crossed arrows used by J Konigs (1587-1607) or further to the other chronology the Clauberg group (1847-1866). Obviously the 'bilbo' as a military 'arming' type sword seems to have been used from late in the first half of the 18th c. into the 19th, and saw extensive Spanish colonial use in Cuba, and Gulf regions with eventual move into interior New Spain. It has been well established that Solingen produced many blades for the Spanish and destined for colonial mounts from around 1760s possibly even earlier. Many were of course those with 'Spanish motto' and the familiar hexagon section 'dragoon' blades. I dont know which German smiths were in the Americas, but am curious on more on this. Perhaps related to Eickhorn who was a main supplier of swords and blades to Latin America by end of the 19thc. Returning to this magnificent example arming rapier, I would say it likely is from first quarter 18th c. and as noted certainly Caribbean. While obviously the hilt is well crafted it is known that Spanish artisans were by this time well established in the ports of call on the Spanish Main. To add a dash of literary romanticism this is the period immediately following the end of the 'Golden Age' of piracy, and in regions where the Spanish Main was ever active, well within that of the immortal work of Stevenson, "Treasure Island". Spanish officers in the New World still used these kinds of swords while at sea as well as ashore, and it is well known despite the often noted 'cavalry' character in blade length. I believe this was largely in that officers used swords in directing and command, and these were well visible, as officers were not typically in the melee where short, stout blades were more effective. Well done Captain Mark!!!