Caribbean Spanish colonial cuphilt rapier

fernando · 13th May 2013, 12:30 PM

Oh man !
Now you can tell you are a real swords collector

.
But if ever you get bored of it, warn me when you toss it over (the ocean); i will make sure i will pick up before it hits the ground ... assuring no damage

.
Will you ever be able to take a clear picture of the bowl interior, where the guardapolvo sometimes stands ?

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M ELEY · 13th May 2013, 06:13 PM

Hello Fernando. Good to hear from you! I thought this one might catch your attention. Forgive me, as I have used the wrong term in my description (

). I was referring to the absence of the overlap along the rim of the bowl , called ? rompas? Not the guardopovlo, of which mine has none. I was looking back over the fine specimens you have posted over the years, but could not find the term for the controversial rim to catch the opponent's blade (I believe the past consensus on this is that the rompas might deflect the point momentarily in battle at best).

Oh, BTW, now I am telling you I am "a real sword collector!"-

fernando · 13th May 2013, 07:27 PM

The term is rompe-puntas (in portuguese quebra pontas)... in other words point breaker.
I belong to the team skeptical about such feature purpose corresponding to what it is claimed for; even Zorro would sweat his mask to catch a blade point in that narrow groove

.
My wishing to see a picture of the bowl interior was to check whether there are some sword smiths mark in there.

M ELEY · 14th May 2013, 12:47 PM

No, unfortunately there are no markings or symbols in the bowl or on the tang. Not to get off the subject, but on my Spanish bilbo, there is a marking of an arrow, complete with feathers, pointing downwards. Would you happen to know that symbol, my friend? The blade is the typical six-sided affair with a rounded tip. Were the blades on bilbos and cuphilts ever made by the German sword smiths, like in England? I know that is an odd question, but it seems that many countries were importing from that region of the world back then-

fernando · 14th May 2013, 01:30 PM

I wouldn't know that mark, but i guess there was a rather active exchange between Toledo and Solingen blades back in that period ... and not only

M ELEY · 14th May 2013, 10:48 PM

Just curious. The arrow marking reminded me of a German smith mark I had seen once. I know Solingen sword blades went to the Spanish colonies and were indoctrinated into Spanish pieces by local smiths. I used to have that broadsword ( a colonial piece with brass lion hilt) with the Solingen marking, German smith's or merchant's names and the typical Span motto 'Do not draw me without reason, etc, etc). The three merchants on the blade had some history to them. My research showed that they mad made their way to S. America ca.1800-05 and were selling their crafts to local residents. I kind of doubted that Solingen blades would have been used on a piece made in the main country of Spain, as Toledo made some of the best pieces in the world at that time and were their competitor.

fernando · 17th May 2013, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I kind of doubted that Solingen blades would have been used on a piece made in the main country of Spain, as Toledo made some of the best pieces in the world at that time and were their competitor.

You know the concept of best, Mark. It is like Miss World election. They determine who is the best among the ones brought up to contest; but we all know girls out there that would beat those elected by miles.
Which blades were best ... Toledo, Solingen (Passau), or even those from other 'no name' origins ?
But i bet the key point here is that of a statistic basis. Spain had huge sword demands due to their colonies occupation. This would be a coherent explanation for blades having to be massively imported (from Solingen) to cope with their needs. This would make it plausible that a private sword would be (all) made in Toledo and setups with Solingen blades were more often found in Military and New World examples.
Hope this makes some sense; no scholar knowledge here

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13th May 2013, 12:30 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Oh man ! Now you can tell you are a real swords collector . But if ever you get bored of it, warn me when you toss it over (the ocean); i will make sure i will pick up before it hits the ground ... assuring no damage . Will you ever be able to take a clear picture of the bowl interior, where the guardapolvo sometimes stands ? .

13th May 2013, 06:13 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Hello Fernando. Good to hear from you! I thought this one might catch your attention. Forgive me, as I have used the wrong term in my description ( ). I was referring to the absence of the overlap along the rim of the bowl , called ? rompas? Not the guardopovlo, of which mine has none. I was looking back over the fine specimens you have posted over the years, but could not find the term for the controversial rim to catch the opponent's blade (I believe the past consensus on this is that the rompas might deflect the point momentarily in battle at best). Oh, BTW, now I am telling you I am "a real sword collector!"-

13th May 2013, 07:27 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The term is rompe-puntas (in portuguese quebra pontas)... in other words point breaker. I belong to the team skeptical about such feature purpose corresponding to what it is claimed for; even Zorro would sweat his mask to catch a blade point in that narrow groove . My wishing to see a picture of the bowl interior was to check whether there are some sword smiths mark in there.

14th May 2013, 12:47 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	No, unfortunately there are no markings or symbols in the bowl or on the tang. Not to get off the subject, but on my Spanish bilbo, there is a marking of an arrow, complete with feathers, pointing downwards. Would you happen to know that symbol, my friend? The blade is the typical six-sided affair with a rounded tip. Were the blades on bilbos and cuphilts ever made by the German sword smiths, like in England? I know that is an odd question, but it seems that many countries were importing from that region of the world back then-

14th May 2013, 01:30 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I wouldn't know that mark, but i guess there was a rather active exchange between Toledo and Solingen blades back in that period ... and not only

14th May 2013, 10:48 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Just curious. The arrow marking reminded me of a German smith mark I had seen once. I know Solingen sword blades went to the Spanish colonies and were indoctrinated into Spanish pieces by local smiths. I used to have that broadsword ( a colonial piece with brass lion hilt) with the Solingen marking, German smith's or merchant's names and the typical Span motto 'Do not draw me without reason, etc, etc). The three merchants on the blade had some history to them. My research showed that they mad made their way to S. America ca.1800-05 and were selling their crafts to local residents. I kind of doubted that Solingen blades would have been used on a piece made in the main country of Spain, as Toledo made some of the best pieces in the world at that time and were their competitor.