A rare late 17th century hanger

kronckew · 12th May 2013, 09:28 AM

reminds me of german hunting swords: (1st 3, sadly, not mine

)
the watermarked one is mine, somewhat more utilitarian.

M ELEY · 12th May 2013, 04:17 PM

Exactly, Kronckew! Hangers went in two directions in their development; the hunting sword and the cutlass. The German hirschfangers developed from this pattern. Many of the early hangers were German-made. The top pic of your post is an early to mid 18th century example, and the third one down is late 18th . The second is late 18th/early 19th piece with a trousse, while the one you possess (nice sword, BTW), is of a 19th century pattern. Is it modern-made? Although utilitarian, it is extremely effective for dispatching and preparing game.

CutlassCollector · 12th May 2013, 05:41 PM

Nice find Mark, looks like an interesting sword and good to get your write up adding information with the pictures. CC

M ELEY · 12th May 2013, 05:49 PM

Thanks, CC. I'm hoping some of the forumites might have similar early hangers to post and compare. As an enthusiast of all-things-cutlass, such as yourself, I can't get enough of the hangers and their naval connections-

kronckew · 12th May 2013, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... while the one you possess (nice sword, BTW), is of a 19th century pattern. Is it modern-made? Although utilitarian, it is extremely effective for dispatching and preparing game.

yes, it's late 20th c. german

i included it for it's pattern rather than it's age. i can't afford to spend what an antique one would cost me, tho if i got a good deal on one i liked all bets are off. i like the trousse one...

there are also a lot of nice hauswehr out there....

Jim McDougall · 17th May 2013, 10:12 PM

Good catch Mark on the associations with cherubs on the hilts and thier occurrence on tombstones and the 'memento mori' theme. Interestingly one of these type hangers with cherub faces and an intriguing sigil or device on the blade appear in the June issue of "Man at Arms" magazine. It is I believe featured as well in Stuart Mowbray's new book "British Military Swords: Volume One 1600-1660", with volume two pending.

Actually, in much the same sense of the theme mentioned, the cherubs are associated with swords and Biblical passages aligned with the flaming sword guardinng the gates of Paradise in the book of Genesis. These kinds of motif also seem to have neen nuanced with some Masonic themes through the 18th century but these ideas are mostly speculative. It is interesting however that the cherub motif in the example in Man at Arms are in context with a marking very similar to various glyphs and characters used by certain fraternal groups. The 'Green Man' theme is also occurring on hangers and swords of 1650s-90s.

M ELEY · 18th May 2013, 06:15 AM

Thanks, Jim, for commenting. I am excited to hear about the next issue of Man-at-Arms (I have purchased back copies in the past) and appreciate the 'heads-up'. Likewise, I've been meaning to purchase Mr Mowbray's book for a while, but now, I'll make it a priority. I'm glad you gave me the name that was escaping me- 'momento mori'. Sounds suitably creepy and sophisticated at the same time! I had thought of the Green Man image, but had forgotten the most obvious biblical connection.
You also brought to light the fraternal connections with these swords. Would these also include trade guilds? I've got to get my hands on that issue!

Dmitry · 26th May 2013, 03:12 PM

I think the feathered bust might be a Harpy, not a cherub. Cherubs only had wings and were otherwise human, Harpies had bodies if birds and human faces. Classical motifs are prevalent on the guards of these hangers, with Hercules being the most popular one, in my experience. Last quarter of the 17th-early 18th c. England is how I approach them. Precise dating is tough, unless the example is documented or otherwise dated, IMHO.

M ELEY · 30th May 2013, 11:30 AM

Thanks for responding, Dmitry. Yes, a harpy it could very well be. The face isn't the typical cherubic smile either. It appears more human and a little creepy. Either way, I like the decoration, as I don't have many pieces with figural hilts.

12th May 2013, 09:28 AM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	reminds me of german hunting swords: (1st 3, sadly, not mine ) the watermarked one is mine, somewhat more utilitarian. Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 12th May 2013 at 09:56 AM.

18th May 2013, 06:15 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Thanks, Jim, for commenting. I am excited to hear about the next issue of Man-at-Arms (I have purchased back copies in the past) and appreciate the 'heads-up'. Likewise, I've been meaning to purchase Mr Mowbray's book for a while, but now, I'll make it a priority. I'm glad you gave me the name that was escaping me- 'momento mori'. Sounds suitably creepy and sophisticated at the same time! I had thought of the Green Man image, but had forgotten the most obvious biblical connection. You also brought to light the fraternal connections with these swords. Would these also include trade guilds? I've got to get my hands on that issue! Last edited by M ELEY; 18th May 2013 at 06:33 AM.

12th May 2013, 04:17 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Exactly, Kronckew! Hangers went in two directions in their development; the hunting sword and the cutlass. The German hirschfangers developed from this pattern. Many of the early hangers were German-made. The top pic of your post is an early to mid 18th century example, and the third one down is late 18th . The second is late 18th/early 19th piece with a trousse, while the one you possess (nice sword, BTW), is of a 19th century pattern. Is it modern-made? Although utilitarian, it is extremely effective for dispatching and preparing game.

12th May 2013, 05:41 PM	#3
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 369	Nice find Mark, looks like an interesting sword and good to get your write up adding information with the pictures. CC

12th May 2013, 05:49 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Thanks, CC. I'm hoping some of the forumites might have similar early hangers to post and compare. As an enthusiast of all-things-cutlass, such as yourself, I can't get enough of the hangers and their naval connections-

17th May 2013, 10:12 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Good catch Mark on the associations with cherubs on the hilts and thier occurrence on tombstones and the 'memento mori' theme. Interestingly one of these type hangers with cherub faces and an intriguing sigil or device on the blade appear in the June issue of "Man at Arms" magazine. It is I believe featured as well in Stuart Mowbray's new book "British Military Swords: Volume One 1600-1660", with volume two pending. Actually, in much the same sense of the theme mentioned, the cherubs are associated with swords and Biblical passages aligned with the flaming sword guardinng the gates of Paradise in the book of Genesis. These kinds of motif also seem to have neen nuanced with some Masonic themes through the 18th century but these ideas are mostly speculative. It is interesting however that the cherub motif in the example in Man at Arms are in context with a marking very similar to various glyphs and characters used by certain fraternal groups. The 'Green Man' theme is also occurring on hangers and swords of 1650s-90s.

26th May 2013, 03:12 PM	#8
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I think the feathered bust might be a Harpy, not a cherub. Cherubs only had wings and were otherwise human, Harpies had bodies if birds and human faces. Classical motifs are prevalent on the guards of these hangers, with Hercules being the most popular one, in my experience. Last quarter of the 17th-early 18th c. England is how I approach them. Precise dating is tough, unless the example is documented or otherwise dated, IMHO.

30th May 2013, 11:30 AM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,206	Thanks for responding, Dmitry. Yes, a harpy it could very well be. The face isn't the typical cherubic smile either. It appears more human and a little creepy. Either way, I like the decoration, as I don't have many pieces with figural hilts.