INDONESIAN KERIS: Aesthetic and Philosophical Meaning

ariel · 1st May 2013, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Ariel, obviously haven't read too many books on keris.

What would you think if, say, Salvador Dali (yes, i know he is dead) said something similar in regards to the latest book on the Surrealist movement in art?
The gentlemen whose quotes you find so disrespectful are not just specialists in the field, they sort of are the field. I hope you can see the difference.

David, I have WRITTEN more books , book chapters and articles than you have ever READ :-)

This is not the first snarky remark you have directed at me. Please reconsider this attitude in the future.

As to Dali, or any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior.

David · 1st May 2013, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

David, I have WRITTEN more books , book chapters and articles than you have ever READ :-)

This is not the first snarky remark you have directed at me. Please reconsider this attitude in the future.

As to Dali, or any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior.

Ariel, there is nothing at all "snarky" in my commentary. It is direct and straight forward. Perhaps you could list for me all the books on keris that you have indeed read to date. Frankly i could care less about how many books you have written. If they were truly of any interest to me i would have read them by now.
I am sorry that you have somehow interpreted what i have written as an attack on you personally. My point was that if you had read a number of these keris books you would have a better perspective on how the same old incorrect information is recycled again and again in these publications and have a better understanding of why an Mpu might well disregard them.
My point about Dali was not one of "personal achievement". I was trying to point out the difference between the source/creator and those who set themselves up as experts who claim to understand and/or explain the source/creation. Dali is a creator of Surrealism (one might even argue that he personifies the movement), not simply some academic who claims to understand it. Likewise an Mpu is the artist/priest who actually brings the keris into being. And the making of keris on this level is more than simply a profession. This is not a matter of simply forging a blade as a ordinary blade smith would. I think this places the Mpu in a unique position to be critical.
Lastly let me leave you with something to consider. If you think you have been slighted, delve a bit more before taking me to task in a public forum. Put your ego in check and send me a PM first or if you think that gets you no where complain to another Mod or even Lee. This forum is not the place for you to air your grievances or attempt to start a pissing match. Please consider that in the future.

Jean · 1st May 2013, 07:44 PM

Gentlemen,
I feel sad to watch this interesting discussion ending in personal arguments.

Could we please come back to the original question: Has anybody got the opportunity to read or at least see the book in question: "Keris Indonesia: Estetika dan Makna Filosofi" or the other new book "Keris Kuno: Estetika, Simbol, dan Fisafat" and what would be his opinion and recommedation for acquiring them or not?
Best regards

David · 1st May 2013, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Gentlemen,
I feel sad to watch this interesting discussion ending in personal arguments.

Could we please come back to the original question: Has anybody got the opportunity to read or at least see the book in question: "Keris Indonesia: Estetika dan Makna Filosofi" or the other new book "Keris Kuno: Estetika, Simbol, dan Fisafat" and what would be his opinion and recommedation for acquiring them or not?
Best regards

Jean, there is no "argument" here nor is this discussion at an end if members have new information to add to it. I am afraid that Patrick never returned an answer to my first two questions to him.
1. Have you read the book then?
2. What makes it a "very good book" for you?
So i guess we can extend those questions to others. However, if no one here has read these books then we have very little to move forward with.

ariel · 1st May 2013, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

...... if no one here has read these books then we have very little to move forward with.

A very healthy attitude.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2013, 10:24 PM

Ariel, as I have already remarked:- I enjoy reading your posts; you have a style that is quite unique in this Forum and that does make a change from the usual warm, touchy-feely comradeship that characterises most participants in our discussions here. I like a little bit of colour in discussion. There is nothing quite so refreshing as seeing a CEO begin to froth at the mouth during a board meeting because he feels some other member of the board has slighted him. Even though some of us might sound like a CEO at times, I'm not suggesting that you, nor any of us here are in fact CEO's or in attendance at a board meeting, but sometimes vitriol can become a source of amusement.

If one thing in this world is true, it is that we can never change the behaviour of another person, but we can change our own.

I do apologise to you for my overly long posts. I often find that I need to make the Mark Twain plea:- "forgive me for the long letter, I did not have time to write a short one". I'm sure that as an experienced writer you would understand exactly the problems of presentation that is both accurate and concise, and since we are relaxing here, not producing words in hope of financial reward, nor enhancement of reputation, I am equally sure you will forgive my verbosity.

However, had my previous post dealing with societal variation been shorter, you might have read it, and having read it you may have given consideration to the points I attempted to make, and possibly even have come to an understanding of those points. Clearly this did not happen, for had you considered what I presented in that post, being the intelligent, educated man that you are, you would have realised that the standards of behaviour that apply in New York, London, and even here in the antipodes, are not necessarily the standards of behaviour that apply in other places on earth. Most certainly, the standards that you consider to be proper are not necessarily the standards that are considered to be proper in Jawa.

Let me give you an example:- let us imagine that you have entered the Golden Arches to indulge yourself in a Big Mac; in New York, or anywhere else in the conglomerate of western societies, you would expect that payment for your Big Mac offered with the left hand would be gratefully accepted, and rightly so. But if you offered payment with the left hand in Jawa you would find that the vast bulk of well-mannered people in that part of the world would refuse your payment and indicate for you to place it on the counter. It goes further than this:- if you attempted to accept your change with your left hand it could well be tossed in your general direction.
You see, in Jawa, and a number of other places, the left hand is considered to be foul, and may not be used to either give or receive; to do so indicates that you are either incredibly ill-mannered or simply a fool and not to be accorded the respect due to a civilised person. To proffer the left hand to another person is deemed to be not only ill-mannered, but in some circumstances may be considered an insult that could require further action.

You see Ariel, your standards, and I guess mine also, when I am in my home country are quite different to the standards of people who live in different societies to our own.

Because of this we must never pass judgement upon what is acceptable behaviour in some other society by measuring that behaviour against our own standards.

So where am I going with this?

Once again you have decided that you are qualified to arbitrate upon standards of behaviour:-

"--- any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior."

Regrettably Ariel, in this instance you are quite incorrect; that which you have determined is rude behaviour would not be considered so in the society where we find Javanese empus --- any more so than your payment for a Big Mac offered with your left hand would be considered impolite in New York.

May I most humbly suggest that before you pass judgement upon what is correct behaviour in a society that differs from your own, that you spend just a little time in gaining some knowledge of that society.

Bjorn · 1st May 2013, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

May I most humbly suggest that before you pass judgement upon what is correct behaviour in a society that differs from your own, that you spend just a little time in gaining some knowledge of that society.

In light of the above: I am in the process of reading Mysticism in Java: Ideology in Indonesia. This book covers the Javanese mindset in detail and would be an interesting read for anyone wanting to learn more about Javanese society.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2013, 11:14 PM

Mulder is a good start, Yuuzan. I find him very easy to read, but he tends to generalise a bit too much, which is OK as long as we can recognise that what he puts forth is not necessarily applicable in all cases. Additionally there is a distinct focus on kejawen which tends to orientate this particular writing towards a distinct segment of society.

In attempts at understanding Javanese society from published text Geertz is probably indispensable. "Religion of Java" was written a long time ago, but much of what it presents is timeless. Possibly not as easy to read as Mulder, but still, not difficult for a layman.

David · 3rd May 2013, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am afraid that Patrick never returned an answer to my first two questions to him.
1. Have you read the book then?
2. What makes it a "very good book" for you?
So i guess we can extend those questions to others. However, if no one here has read these books then we have very little to move forward with.

I see Patrick still has not returned to this post to respond to my questions.
So, let's get down to what this thread is really all about. We still don't know if Patrick has read this book or not or what makes a "very good book" on keris for him, but here is what i do know.
1. Patrick is a long time keris dealer who regularly sells on eBay (nothing wrong with that).
2. Patrick is now selling this book on eBay.
3. Patrick's only other post since becoming a member last November was to praise another keris book which he also sells.
4. It seems that a "very good book" for Patrick is one that will earn him money.

So what this thread really boils down to is this; an advertisement for a new book. This is what i suspected at first, but still i let this thread go on, hopeful that it would become a discussion on the actual merits of the book. I would like to encourage that we do have real and substantial discussion of books written on the subject....that is, when we have members who have actually read the books in question. However, the use of this forum as means to promote commercial activities will not be tolerated. Period!
If someone gets a hold of this (or any book on keris) and wants to start a thread discussing it's merit or faults i wholeheartedly support that. Please bring to that conversation details and reasoning so that a useful discussion about the book can follow. If, on the other hand, you are simply hawking your wares, please find another forum for your activities.
Thread closed.

1st May 2013, 10:24 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ariel, as I have already remarked:- I enjoy reading your posts; you have a style that is quite unique in this Forum and that does make a change from the usual warm, touchy-feely comradeship that characterises most participants in our discussions here. I like a little bit of colour in discussion. There is nothing quite so refreshing as seeing a CEO begin to froth at the mouth during a board meeting because he feels some other member of the board has slighted him. Even though some of us might sound like a CEO at times, I'm not suggesting that you, nor any of us here are in fact CEO's or in attendance at a board meeting, but sometimes vitriol can become a source of amusement. If one thing in this world is true, it is that we can never change the behaviour of another person, but we can change our own. I do apologise to you for my overly long posts. I often find that I need to make the Mark Twain plea:- "forgive me for the long letter, I did not have time to write a short one". I'm sure that as an experienced writer you would understand exactly the problems of presentation that is both accurate and concise, and since we are relaxing here, not producing words in hope of financial reward, nor enhancement of reputation, I am equally sure you will forgive my verbosity. However, had my previous post dealing with societal variation been shorter, you might have read it, and having read it you may have given consideration to the points I attempted to make, and possibly even have come to an understanding of those points. Clearly this did not happen, for had you considered what I presented in that post, being the intelligent, educated man that you are, you would have realised that the standards of behaviour that apply in New York, London, and even here in the antipodes, are not necessarily the standards of behaviour that apply in other places on earth. Most certainly, the standards that you consider to be proper are not necessarily the standards that are considered to be proper in Jawa. Let me give you an example:- let us imagine that you have entered the Golden Arches to indulge yourself in a Big Mac; in New York, or anywhere else in the conglomerate of western societies, you would expect that payment for your Big Mac offered with the left hand would be gratefully accepted, and rightly so. But if you offered payment with the left hand in Jawa you would find that the vast bulk of well-mannered people in that part of the world would refuse your payment and indicate for you to place it on the counter. It goes further than this:- if you attempted to accept your change with your left hand it could well be tossed in your general direction. You see, in Jawa, and a number of other places, the left hand is considered to be foul, and may not be used to either give or receive; to do so indicates that you are either incredibly ill-mannered or simply a fool and not to be accorded the respect due to a civilised person. To proffer the left hand to another person is deemed to be not only ill-mannered, but in some circumstances may be considered an insult that could require further action. You see Ariel, your standards, and I guess mine also, when I am in my home country are quite different to the standards of people who live in different societies to our own. Because of this we must never pass judgement upon what is acceptable behaviour in some other society by measuring that behaviour against our own standards. So where am I going with this? Once again you have decided that you are qualified to arbitrate upon standards of behaviour:- "--- any empu you have in mind, - no personal achievements in a particular professional area are an excuse of rude behavior." Regrettably Ariel, in this instance you are quite incorrect; that which you have determined is rude behaviour would not be considered so in the society where we find Javanese empus --- any more so than your payment for a Big Mac offered with your left hand would be considered impolite in New York. May I most humbly suggest that before you pass judgement upon what is correct behaviour in a society that differs from your own, that you spend just a little time in gaining some knowledge of that society. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 1st May 2013 at 11:19 PM. Reason: punctuation

1st May 2013, 07:44 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Gentlemen, I feel sad to watch this interesting discussion ending in personal arguments. Could we please come back to the original question: Has anybody got the opportunity to read or at least see the book in question: "Keris Indonesia: Estetika dan Makna Filosofi" or the other new book "Keris Kuno: Estetika, Simbol, dan Fisafat" and what would be his opinion and recommedation for acquiring them or not? Best regards

1st May 2013, 11:14 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Mulder is a good start, Yuuzan. I find him very easy to read, but he tends to generalise a bit too much, which is OK as long as we can recognise that what he puts forth is not necessarily applicable in all cases. Additionally there is a distinct focus on kejawen which tends to orientate this particular writing towards a distinct segment of society. In attempts at understanding Javanese society from published text Geertz is probably indispensable. "Religion of Java" was written a long time ago, but much of what it presents is timeless. Possibly not as easy to read as Mulder, but still, not difficult for a layman.