Collecting:- opinions sought

Jussi M. · 1st May 2013, 08:55 AM

Mr. Maisey -

one thing that should not be forgotten herein is time. Yes, we´ve often spoken on this forum about the importance of time from the perspective that in order to understand better an object such as the keris (that comes from a distant time and past), we inevitably need to try to understand that distant time and place better as time alters perspective. - Thus the need for educating oneself on areas such as s, c & h.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

One of the things about our discussions here in this Forum that disappoints me very considerably is the repetition of questions related to matters of identification. (...) The nature of the questions and the discussion could be seen as an indication of the level of interest that the questioners have in the subject, and this in turn could be seen as an indicator of how much genuine study has been carried out in order to improve the level of knowledge.

We should however be aware that time still envelops us - we all, as the keris, change as time moves forward. You yourself Mr. Maisey joined lives with the keris over 60 years ago. That is a long time, and during this time of over half a century, your perception, understanding and motives in continuing to live with the keris have changed. Dramatically!

Indeed it was not a short jump from "acquiring every keris ever made" to become a collector of knowledge, much of which has become wisdom already. Thus, whilst I do understand your call for deeper discussion and less show and tell, I wish you patience as most of us here are still at the very beginnings of our process labelled as "collecting". Or, in the case of the few gifted (read truly motivated) ones, dare I say, "study". Maybe it could also be said that many of us are just happy being devoted fans. - For myself the keris represents many a things: friendship, relaxation, awe, mystery and a sort of a peep hole onto something else that I have true passion for.

You, Mr. Maisey, are the Professor whereas I, and most others here, are like the junior freshmen. That is OK, but it is not OK for the professor to expect the freshmen to be able to deliver as do those who have already climbed to the upper echelons of the academia as maturing takes - pun intended - time.

I am afraid that some people might get discouraged reading threads such as this as they still have not learned how to write and they might understand wrongly that novels are expected from them. Let me assure you they are not.

The only thing valid? - Join the discussion. Be active. Ask. Enjoy. Learning happens best when you are having fun and you can have fun even if the subject is loaded.

Thanks,

J.

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2013, 09:26 AM

Yes, you're right on the money Jussi:- things change over time. I no longer go running through the lignum chasing pig dogs so that I can severe the spinal cord of a boar with a khukri blow. It was great fun when I was 20, but it would kill me now.

These days I'm more in tune with ploughing through multi volume publications that deal with 14th century Jawa. I would not have been capable of this when I was 20, but I am now, so I've lost one ability and gained a different one.

But Jussi, please do not think that I lack patience. Patience is one of my very few virtues, and I have it in spades. I do realise that not everybody wants the same things that I do from a keris interest, and I do realise that for many people just being able to tell the difference between a Jogja keris and a Solo keris is a major leap forward in knowledge --- as it was for me many, many years ago.

I understand that we all need to learn our ABC before we can begin to read Shakespeare. My little bit of bitching above was because I truly would like to see some of our more long term members advance just a little bit beyond simple questions of ID, and begin to try to understand the significance of the keris within its cultural context. This is something I'd very much like to see, but if it never happens it won't deter me from jumping into discussions from time to time and annoying people.

Oh yeah --- Jussi, in The Land of Oz we tend not to address people by use of an honorific. In other words we do not use "Dr.", or "Mr.", or even "Prime Minister". If mister average were to meet the prime minister of the day he would most likely greet her with "G'day Julie". In fact, the use of an honorific can in some circumstances be interpreted as an insult.
So, may I most politely request that you address me as "Alan"? Regrettably we did not go to the same high school at the same time, nor do we belong to the same club, otherwise I would request that you address me as "Maisey", without the "Mr."

Jussi M. · 1st May 2013, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Oh yeah --- Jussi, (...) may I most politely request that you address me as "Alan"? Regrettably we did not go to the same high school at the same time, nor do we belong to the same club, otherwise I would request that you address me as "Maisey", without the "Mr."

Sure thing Alan!

And, for the record (for the reader), I did not aim for sarcasm when I addressed Alan as Mr. Maisey. - That is just how I´ve addressed him since day one on this public arena.

Going to high school together... That would had been interesting...!

J.

Iain · 1st May 2013, 04:45 PM

If you'll permit a perspective from a non kris collector (African takouba), I find the topic at hand fascinating and it is something I have often thought about.

Q1: Yes

Q2: I think so, although the level of detail any individual collector might find necessary to satisfy their interest will greatly vary.

To expand on Q2 slightly, I still actively collect but have become completely narrow minded. My collecting began as a passing interest in a particular form, truth be told inspired by a boyish desire to own something like a "knight's" sword but quite a bit cheaper. This was admittedly a rather shallow place to start from. However, at the start my knowledge of the cultures, peoples and history that produced this particular form was just about zero. Through collecting I became not only aware that I couldn't understand the objects in the context I wanted to without further study of the cultures that produced them, but genuinely interested in the history of that part of the world. The swords being very much a gateway into a broader desire to learn.

I think in general there are two motivations for collectors - some collect to fill a niche, a spot on the wall, generally a good example exemplifying the particular form being acquired. This, because of a fascination with swords or weaponry as a whole and as a topic within its own right. This is a very valid collecting path to my mind and is a broad approach that I sometimes truly envy! It is perhaps often characterized by an emphasis on classification related to that need to fill particularly categories.

On the other side, as in my case, the sword or weapon is simply a way of achieving a physical connection to the history or culture that interests us and a real and present reminder for continued research. I think I could have started with any sword form and gone down the same rabbit hole. I just happened to start with takouba and got stuck.

I have to admit I am quite lax even with displaying my collection and have quite a few 'piles' around the house. The real joy from each piece is the interest to learn, research and formulate ideas about the history and development of the form. I have happily read about everything from brass working, to leather tanning, textiles, religion, trade and general history in the context of the cultures that produced takouba. I find myself less and less interested in the minutia of each example I acquire but in the context it can find in the overall 'story' of this particular sword form.

I have no motivation to collect other objects and in that sense I am quite limited. My learning is confined to a somewhat narrow scope of what can be seen to directly impact the topic of this sword form, but that has turned out to be quite a lot! I would simply put, not collect if I felt like there was nothing new to learn and contribute. It is the to drive formulate new ideas and theories that keeps me acquiring pieces and the sense that there is always something more to learn about them.

Best regards,

Iain

A. G. Maisey · 1st May 2013, 10:36 PM

Thank you gentlemen.

The responses to my questions are beginning to exceed what I had hoped for. It seems that this is a subject to which many of us can relate.

Iain, I particularly like what you have written; it seems to echo to some degree my own experience, possibly demonstrating that perhaps I am not the keris-compulsive-obsessive that I have sometimes been accused of being.

ariel · 7th May 2013, 04:21 PM

Sorry for being late and brief, but I am traveling :-)

Q1: Of course, it goes without saying. There is a corollary as well: collecting ethographic weapons in the first place stimulates one to know more about relevant cultures, their histories, beliefs etc. My guess, the latter is more prevalent than the original formulation as defined by Alan.

Q2: Sure, it helps. But not to the point of "going native". One can collect Maori weapons without engaging in cannibalism, South Indian ones without internalizing the idea of animal sacrifice and cutting his ( her) own head off and Persian shamshirs without converting to Shia Islam or dreaming about becoming Nader Shah's valet :-) The same attitude is correct, IMHO, to any other culture, from Sudan to Indonesia.

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2013, 11:03 PM

Ariel, I doubt that any reasonable person could disagree with what you have written, but what you have written does not really address my questions.

My guess is that the desire to collect anything can arise from a multitude of sources, taking myself as an example, my knife and keris orientation probably began with visits to the home of my mother's aunt, whose son chose to live in a village in Malaya after he was released from Changi at the end of WWII:- its a long story and doesn't need repeating here. Then there was the uncle who broke all the rules and gave me an enormous handmade bowie knife when I was about 5 years old.

These were beginnings, but there were a lot of forces came into play after that, so yes, agreed, one interest can stimulate another, and to identify which came first might need a little thought.

With your second response, again I agree, and again you have given an irrefutable response to a question other than the one I asked.

Agreed that nobody needs to become a chicken to know what an egg looks like, however, in respect of the knowledge of a society and culture other than the one into which one has been born, I submit that the degree of knowledge sought will dictate the degree of involvement in that society and culture.

A quick read of a National Geographic Magazine article in one's lawyer's waiting room might be sufficient for some people, whilst a life altering obsession may not be sufficient for others. It all depends upon what one desires to know.

I hope you are enjoying your journey.

7th May 2013, 04:21 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry for being late and brief, but I am traveling :-) Q1: Of course, it goes without saying. There is a corollary as well: collecting ethographic weapons in the first place stimulates one to know more about relevant cultures, their histories, beliefs etc. My guess, the latter is more prevalent than the original formulation as defined by Alan. Q2: Sure, it helps. But not to the point of "going native". One can collect Maori weapons without engaging in cannibalism, South Indian ones without internalizing the idea of animal sacrifice and cutting his ( her) own head off and Persian shamshirs without converting to Shia Islam or dreaming about becoming Nader Shah's valet :-) The same attitude is correct, IMHO, to any other culture, from Sudan to Indonesia. Last edited by ariel; 7th May 2013 at 04:28 PM. Reason: addition

1st May 2013, 09:26 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes, you're right on the money Jussi:- things change over time. I no longer go running through the lignum chasing pig dogs so that I can severe the spinal cord of a boar with a khukri blow. It was great fun when I was 20, but it would kill me now. These days I'm more in tune with ploughing through multi volume publications that deal with 14th century Jawa. I would not have been capable of this when I was 20, but I am now, so I've lost one ability and gained a different one. But Jussi, please do not think that I lack patience. Patience is one of my very few virtues, and I have it in spades. I do realise that not everybody wants the same things that I do from a keris interest, and I do realise that for many people just being able to tell the difference between a Jogja keris and a Solo keris is a major leap forward in knowledge --- as it was for me many, many years ago. I understand that we all need to learn our ABC before we can begin to read Shakespeare. My little bit of bitching above was because I truly would like to see some of our more long term members advance just a little bit beyond simple questions of ID, and begin to try to understand the significance of the keris within its cultural context. This is something I'd very much like to see, but if it never happens it won't deter me from jumping into discussions from time to time and annoying people. Oh yeah --- Jussi, in The Land of Oz we tend not to address people by use of an honorific. In other words we do not use "Dr.", or "Mr.", or even "Prime Minister". If mister average were to meet the prime minister of the day he would most likely greet her with "G'day Julie". In fact, the use of an honorific can in some circumstances be interpreted as an insult. So, may I most politely request that you address me as "Alan"? Regrettably we did not go to the same high school at the same time, nor do we belong to the same club, otherwise I would request that you address me as "Maisey", without the "Mr."

1st May 2013, 04:45 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,708	If you'll permit a perspective from a non kris collector (African takouba), I find the topic at hand fascinating and it is something I have often thought about. Q1: Yes Q2: I think so, although the level of detail any individual collector might find necessary to satisfy their interest will greatly vary. To expand on Q2 slightly, I still actively collect but have become completely narrow minded. My collecting began as a passing interest in a particular form, truth be told inspired by a boyish desire to own something like a "knight's" sword but quite a bit cheaper. This was admittedly a rather shallow place to start from. However, at the start my knowledge of the cultures, peoples and history that produced this particular form was just about zero. Through collecting I became not only aware that I couldn't understand the objects in the context I wanted to without further study of the cultures that produced them, but genuinely interested in the history of that part of the world. The swords being very much a gateway into a broader desire to learn. I think in general there are two motivations for collectors - some collect to fill a niche, a spot on the wall, generally a good example exemplifying the particular form being acquired. This, because of a fascination with swords or weaponry as a whole and as a topic within its own right. This is a very valid collecting path to my mind and is a broad approach that I sometimes truly envy! It is perhaps often characterized by an emphasis on classification related to that need to fill particularly categories. On the other side, as in my case, the sword or weapon is simply a way of achieving a physical connection to the history or culture that interests us and a real and present reminder for continued research. I think I could have started with any sword form and gone down the same rabbit hole. I just happened to start with takouba and got stuck. I have to admit I am quite lax even with displaying my collection and have quite a few 'piles' around the house. The real joy from each piece is the interest to learn, research and formulate ideas about the history and development of the form. I have happily read about everything from brass working, to leather tanning, textiles, religion, trade and general history in the context of the cultures that produced takouba. I find myself less and less interested in the minutia of each example I acquire but in the context it can find in the overall 'story' of this particular sword form. I have no motivation to collect other objects and in that sense I am quite limited. My learning is confined to a somewhat narrow scope of what can be seen to directly impact the topic of this sword form, but that has turned out to be quite a lot! I would simply put, not collect if I felt like there was nothing new to learn and contribute. It is the to drive formulate new ideas and theories that keeps me acquiring pieces and the sense that there is always something more to learn about them. Best regards, Iain

1st May 2013, 10:36 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Thank you gentlemen. The responses to my questions are beginning to exceed what I had hoped for. It seems that this is a subject to which many of us can relate. Iain, I particularly like what you have written; it seems to echo to some degree my own experience, possibly demonstrating that perhaps I am not the keris-compulsive-obsessive that I have sometimes been accused of being.

7th May 2013, 11:03 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Ariel, I doubt that any reasonable person could disagree with what you have written, but what you have written does not really address my questions. My guess is that the desire to collect anything can arise from a multitude of sources, taking myself as an example, my knife and keris orientation probably began with visits to the home of my mother's aunt, whose son chose to live in a village in Malaya after he was released from Changi at the end of WWII:- its a long story and doesn't need repeating here. Then there was the uncle who broke all the rules and gave me an enormous handmade bowie knife when I was about 5 years old. These were beginnings, but there were a lot of forces came into play after that, so yes, agreed, one interest can stimulate another, and to identify which came first might need a little thought. With your second response, again I agree, and again you have given an irrefutable response to a question other than the one I asked. Agreed that nobody needs to become a chicken to know what an egg looks like, however, in respect of the knowledge of a society and culture other than the one into which one has been born, I submit that the degree of knowledge sought will dictate the degree of involvement in that society and culture. A quick read of a National Geographic Magazine article in one's lawyer's waiting room might be sufficient for some people, whilst a life altering obsession may not be sufficient for others. It all depends upon what one desires to know. I hope you are enjoying your journey.