An Interesting Kris

kai · 15th April 2013, 09:15 AM

Hello Ron,

congrats, I like this dwarf kris a lot!

From the blade and the silver work I'd place this well into the 19th century.

One may wonder wether this may be a very early attempt at circumventing sword bans (which would mean a relatively late date) considering the similarity of the bulbous grip ornament with those seen in gunong/punal. OTOH, some early kris also have this bulbous grip ornament although stylistically this dwarf kris appears to be closer to early gunong. Okir is very limited on this hilt (Ron could you please post a close-up taken from the top of the grip?); it doesn't look Sulu to me and also the scabbard points to Mindanao. I'd guess this is a relatively early type of additional sidearm and believe the history of gunong/punal also goes back for quite a bit longer than usually acknowleged.

Regards,
Kai

Sajen · 15th April 2013, 09:55 AM

Hi Ron,

very nice dwarf!

And the big brother is beautiful as well!

Regards,

Detlef

VVV · 15th April 2013, 11:14 AM

Nice catch, Ron!
That's the smallest one I have ever seen.
It doesn't resemble a "proto-kris" so maybe a "proto-punal", as Kai suggested, could be an explanation?
What's your idea, based on actually handling it?

Michael

CharlesS · 15th April 2013, 12:36 PM

Spunjer, I think I see a bit of a difference in the hilt size between the two you have displayed. If so that could suggest that the first one may be a "princely" kriss specifically made for a child. Only handling it would likely answer that question, so what is your take on it?

mross · 15th April 2013, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Spunjer, I think I see a bit of a difference in the hilt size between the two you have displayed. If so that could suggest that the first one may be a "princely" kriss specifically made for a child. Only handling it would likely answer that question, so what is your take on it?

I second the ' "princely" kriss specifically made for a child ' idea, makes the most sense given the quality of the handle.

kai · 15th April 2013, 10:26 PM

I'm with Ron - he already mentioned that it handles like a dagger and that those smaller kris possibly intended for kids/teens tend to be way larger than this dwarf; usually larger than typical archaic kris (on Mindanao). If it was common to have kris for baby princes, one would expect to see more of these rather than an unique example.

The pommel material also doesn't help since ivory is fairly common in gunong, too.

I doubt we'll ever be able to ascertain its original use and may be stuck with guesswork...

Regards,
Kai

Spunjer · 16th April 2013, 03:48 AM

thanks for everyone's comments so far...
yeah, this particular piece stomps me. another possibility would be a moro panday's attempt in making a version of an indonesian style kris but in a moro kris fashion???

regarding the handle, it's about half to a three quarter inch shorter than that of an average handle, and the circumference is a tad smaller. we can assume it was made for a smaller person, but why is the blade way shorter than what we consider as boy's kris? i forgot to mention that the blade has a diamond shape cross section, and it's about a quarter inch thick for the most part. as i have mention, the balance is excellent.
Al, regarding your question about the other kris's elephant trunk: no, it's not broken, rather it's abbreviated. kai, per your request, i've added a close-up of the handle. i've also added a close-up of the crosspiece. those pins btw are swaasa

16th April 2013, 03:48 AM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	thanks for everyone's comments so far... yeah, this particular piece stomps me. another possibility would be a moro panday's attempt in making a version of an indonesian style kris but in a moro kris fashion??? regarding the handle, it's about half to a three quarter inch shorter than that of an average handle, and the circumference is a tad smaller. we can assume it was made for a smaller person, but why is the blade way shorter than what we consider as boy's kris? i forgot to mention that the blade has a diamond shape cross section, and it's about a quarter inch thick for the most part. as i have mention, the balance is excellent. Al, regarding your question about the other kris's elephant trunk: no, it's not broken, rather it's abbreviated. kai, per your request, i've added a close-up of the handle. i've also added a close-up of the crosspiece. those pins btw are swaasa Attached Images

15th April 2013, 09:15 AM	#1
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Ron, congrats, I like this dwarf kris a lot! From the blade and the silver work I'd place this well into the 19th century. One may wonder wether this may be a very early attempt at circumventing sword bans (which would mean a relatively late date) considering the similarity of the bulbous grip ornament with those seen in gunong/punal. OTOH, some early kris also have this bulbous grip ornament although stylistically this dwarf kris appears to be closer to early gunong. Okir is very limited on this hilt (Ron could you please post a close-up taken from the top of the grip?); it doesn't look Sulu to me and also the scabbard points to Mindanao. I'd guess this is a relatively early type of additional sidearm and believe the history of gunong/punal also goes back for quite a bit longer than usually acknowleged. Regards, Kai

15th April 2013, 09:55 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,212	Hi Ron, very nice dwarf! And the big brother is beautiful as well! Regards, Detlef

15th April 2013, 11:14 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Nice catch, Ron! That's the smallest one I have ever seen. It doesn't resemble a "proto-kris" so maybe a "proto-punal", as Kai suggested, could be an explanation? What's your idea, based on actually handling it? Michael

15th April 2013, 12:36 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,854	Spunjer, I think I see a bit of a difference in the hilt size between the two you have displayed. If so that could suggest that the first one may be a "princely" kriss specifically made for a child. Only handling it would likely answer that question, so what is your take on it?

15th April 2013, 10:26 PM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	I'm with Ron - he already mentioned that it handles like a dagger and that those smaller kris possibly intended for kids/teens tend to be way larger than this dwarf; usually larger than typical archaic kris (on Mindanao). If it was common to have kris for baby princes, one would expect to see more of these rather than an unique example. The pommel material also doesn't help since ivory is fairly common in gunong, too. I doubt we'll ever be able to ascertain its original use and may be stuck with guesswork... Regards, Kai