Early signs of dhamentia

Andrew · 11th October 2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

I am going to go against the tide of opinion and say that it is Burman (as in the tribe after which Burma is named). The wide fuller and floral lotus pommel say Burma to me. Compare it to this one, which I am certain is Burman based on the presence of koftgari (plus the Burmese script is a dead give-away

).

Hi Mark.

Notice I hedged my bets on the pommel?

Have we seen many Burman swords with handles of this length? I know this is not a "cast in stone" feature, but lotus-bud pommels do appear on Thai swords as well, and if the handle was shorter and three-sectioned like your example, you'd have complete agreement from me. Perhaps an example of cross-polination?

The struck marks at the forte are interesting. I suspect a smith's mark (no great guess).

Andrew

Tim Simmons · 11th October 2005, 09:47 PM

This is like one of those difficult viewings of Congo artifacts, where differences are detectable but who exactly, when in areas with cultural similarities has the dominant influence, especially when you consider what was Burma, Malay and Siam all share borders on the peninsula. Might one have to look at even smaller group affiliation such as clans which can be surprisingly dispersed? When I think about it there is less written about this area of weapons than Africa. Tim

Mark · 11th October 2005, 11:28 PM

I don't think I have seem such a long handle on a Burmese sword. Some funky Shan dha approach these proportions, but they have shorter blades, so the handle wouldn't be so long in absolute terms.

Its very possibly cross-pollination. You know how this stuff moves around! Nothing ever seems to be an absolute identifier.

Except I have convinced myself that koftgari on the blade is uniquely Burmese, at least on the older blades (I understand from Dan that someone up in northern Thailand seems to do it nowadays, since he sent his custom dha up there for decoration).

Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

RhysMichael · 12th October 2005, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

I have seen and handled some of the concave tip dha with the fuller going through the tip also. Most of you have seen these already.

Mark · 12th October 2005, 02:51 PM

Yeah, that is exactly the type I meant. The handles are a lot shorter, though, actually.

Andrew · 12th October 2005, 03:31 PM

I'm willing to reconsider the possibility that Tim's sword is Laotian. The hatchet tip reminds me of a more subtle version of those seen on Montagnard swords, and the long handle is often seen on Laos swords.

I'm short on time, but I'll try to post some examples later.

Tim Simmons · 12th October 2005, 04:49 PM

I may be going off on a tangent but if you put aside the detail and decoration and focus on just form, the proportions shown here are a very good match. The knife at the top has the peg scabbard but the middle dha obviously the large version, has a scabbard bound with fine cord without a peg unless there is a peg under the binding. Viewed this way although chalk and cheese in terms of finery there are similarities. Tim

12th October 2005, 04:49 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I may be going off on a tangent but if you put aside the detail and decoration and focus on just form, the proportions shown here are a very good match. The knife at the top has the peg scabbard but the middle dha obviously the large version, has a scabbard bound with fine cord without a peg unless there is a peg under the binding. Viewed this way although chalk and cheese in terms of finery there are similarities. Tim Attached Images

11th October 2005, 09:47 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	This is like one of those difficult viewings of Congo artifacts, where differences are detectable but who exactly, when in areas with cultural similarities has the dominant influence, especially when you consider what was Burma, Malay and Siam all share borders on the peninsula. Might one have to look at even smaller group affiliation such as clans which can be surprisingly dispersed? When I think about it there is less written about this area of weapons than Africa. Tim

11th October 2005, 11:28 PM	#3
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	I don't think I have seem such a long handle on a Burmese sword. Some funky Shan dha approach these proportions, but they have shorter blades, so the handle wouldn't be so long in absolute terms. Its very possibly cross-pollination. You know how this stuff moves around! Nothing ever seems to be an absolute identifier. Except I have convinced myself that koftgari on the blade is uniquely Burmese, at least on the older blades (I understand from Dan that someone up in northern Thailand seems to do it nowadays, since he sent his custom dha up there for decoration). Thinking about the fuller. I haven't seen too many hatchet tipped dha myself. Not that they are especially rare -- I've just not had the opportunity. I have one, but it has no fuller. I had a concave-tipped one with a fuller that ran right through the "tip," though, very much like this one. I'm pretty sure that one was Burmese, but no idea from which tribe (the consensus is Kachin, though).

12th October 2005, 02:51 PM	#5
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Yeah, that is exactly the type I meant. The handles are a lot shorter, though, actually.

12th October 2005, 03:31 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I'm willing to reconsider the possibility that Tim's sword is Laotian. The hatchet tip reminds me of a more subtle version of those seen on Montagnard swords, and the long handle is often seen on Laos swords. I'm short on time, but I'll try to post some examples later.