Early signs of dhamentia

Henk · 10th October 2005, 06:44 PM

Hi Tim,

I think I will get drunk too tonight

That brewed elixer gave you a sharp view on the pleasures of live

Andrew · 10th October 2005, 07:12 PM

Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations!

I've never seen that blade marking before, so I can't help you there. As for the origin, I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research.

Age is a tough one, particularly from photos. This thing looks pretty old, but in nice condition. I'd say late 19th/early 20th century. It may be older.

The blade is nice, and that broad central fuller is not rare on Thai swords. The blade tip is interesting, and it looks like the fuller extends all the way to the end? Any chance you could post a close-up of that feature?

Best,
Andrew

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2005, 07:30 PM

I hope these help. The seller said it was from Malay. The pictures show where the sword ends inside the scabbard, just short of the peg in the scabbard, pegs have been discussed before. Thanks for the help, I was very worried I had bought a pig and a poke while waiting for it to arrive. Tim

Andrew · 10th October 2005, 08:14 PM

Curiouser and curiouser.

Other than claiming a Malay origin, did the seller provide any provenance? I'm unaware of any sword of this form originating from a Malay culture, but it's possible this traveled down through the peninsula on its way to you.

I think this blade has been shortened, but I'm far from certain. I've got a few dha with squared or convex tips that have a wide fuller extending through the tip. However, your scabbard is a bit long for the blade, and I think I detect a slight upcurve to the bottom edge of the fuller which might have indicated the beginning of fuller "resolution" if the blade were originally longer.

I think Mark may have a sword with a very similar blade.

The peg might have been placed to repair the scabbard (do I see a crack in the wood?). I've never seen a dha of this length and a chape cap with such a peg. When I have seen them, they usually appear on knife-sized weapons, or occasionally on newer, lower quality swords. This is not one of those.

Tim Simmons · 10th October 2005, 08:38 PM

I have a knife sized dha with a peg in the scabbard. I can see no obvious signs of alteration, the other side of the scabbard is fine. There are no file marks and a uniform patina on the blade tip, the balance of the weapon could not be better. What was Malay does border Siam. The blade on this is quite thin and tempered so as to have some flexability and much finer than my latter dha. Tim

Andrew · 10th October 2005, 09:03 PM

Fair enough, Tim. As I said, I'm far from certain this blade has been shortened, and you have the advantage of having it in your hand.

This tip form is uncommon, but not unknown.

I, too, favor the balance of these long-handled swords. It makes for a very "quick" feeling blade, as that much handle will usually move the center of balance back very close to the handle/blade junction.

RhysMichael · 11th October 2005, 01:50 PM

I have to join with the others in saying what a great find that is. I have seen similar hilts but never have seen that tip style or makers mark either. Its a shame Dan is not still in Thailand to find out about the mark. I have seen several dha now with the longer handles with a more dramatic curve. Andrew is the evidence now that this is mostly Laotian ?

The only one I own that is similar is this one

Again congratulations on the find and beware dha are addictive. I am sure the surgeon general will soon require warning labels on them.

RhysMichael · 14th October 2005, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations!

I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research.

Andrew
you may have seen this but some evidence from Wat Prakaew in Thailand. It gives a good view of the lotus bud design as a Thai motif,though I am not sure if these are supposed to be swords

10th October 2005, 07:30 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I hope these help. The seller said it was from Malay. The pictures show where the sword ends inside the scabbard, just short of the peg in the scabbard, pegs have been discussed before. Thanks for the help, I was very worried I had bought a pig and a poke while waiting for it to arrive. Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th October 2005 at 07:50 PM.

10th October 2005, 08:38 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I have a knife sized dha with a peg in the scabbard. I can see no obvious signs of alteration, the other side of the scabbard is fine. There are no file marks and a uniform patina on the blade tip, the balance of the weapon could not be better. What was Malay does border Siam. The blade on this is quite thin and tempered so as to have some flexability and much finer than my latter dha. Tim Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 10th October 2005 at 08:51 PM.

10th October 2005, 06:44 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi Tim, I think I will get drunk too tonight That brewed elixer gave you a sharp view on the pleasures of live

10th October 2005, 07:12 PM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations! I've never seen that blade marking before, so I can't help you there. As for the origin, I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research. Age is a tough one, particularly from photos. This thing looks pretty old, but in nice condition. I'd say late 19th/early 20th century. It may be older. The blade is nice, and that broad central fuller is not rare on Thai swords. The blade tip is interesting, and it looks like the fuller extends all the way to the end? Any chance you could post a close-up of that feature? Best, Andrew

10th October 2005, 08:14 PM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Curiouser and curiouser. Other than claiming a Malay origin, did the seller provide any provenance? I'm unaware of any sword of this form originating from a Malay culture, but it's possible this traveled down through the peninsula on its way to you. I think this blade has been shortened, but I'm far from certain. I've got a few dha with squared or convex tips that have a wide fuller extending through the tip. However, your scabbard is a bit long for the blade, and I think I detect a slight upcurve to the bottom edge of the fuller which might have indicated the beginning of fuller "resolution" if the blade were originally longer. I think Mark may have a sword with a very similar blade. The peg might have been placed to repair the scabbard (do I see a crack in the wood?). I've never seen a dha of this length and a chape cap with such a peg. When I have seen them, they usually appear on knife-sized weapons, or occasionally on newer, lower quality swords. This is not one of those.

10th October 2005, 09:03 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Fair enough, Tim. As I said, I'm far from certain this blade has been shortened, and you have the advantage of having it in your hand. This tip form is uncommon, but not unknown. I, too, favor the balance of these long-handled swords. It makes for a very "quick" feeling blade, as that much handle will usually move the center of balance back very close to the handle/blade junction.

11th October 2005, 01:50 PM	#7
RhysMichael Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Virginia Posts: 520	I have to join with the others in saying what a great find that is. I have seen similar hilts but never have seen that tip style or makers mark either. Its a shame Dan is not still in Thailand to find out about the mark. I have seen several dha now with the longer handles with a more dramatic curve. Andrew is the evidence now that this is mostly Laotian ? The only one I own that is similar is this one Again congratulations on the find and beware dha are addictive. I am sure the surgeon general will soon require warning labels on them.