black sea yataghan

wolviex · 9th October 2005, 08:04 PM

Hello and welcome to this Forum

. We all are impressed of knowledge you can find here.

I can't say anything about yataghans, Ariel is one of the members with great knowledge about these weapons, but here you can find some old threads with discussions about them

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002118.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html

Link 5

Miyamoto · 10th October 2005, 08:52 AM

Hi Wolviex,

Thanks a lot!

WOW! Tha was some interensting reading... Great discussion!

fearn · 10th October 2005, 02:32 PM

Hi Miyamoto,

Welcome! I'm surprised that the moderators haven't said anything, but we don't give appraisals here.

Otherwise, the black sea yataghans have been a topic of much discussion, as you've found out. It will be interesting to see what Ariel has to say.

F

ariel · 12th October 2005, 02:58 AM

Well, it's nice to enjoy the status of the "authority in the field", even though my only contribution to it was a short visit to the Askeri Muze in Istanbul and posting here what the local people knew for a long, long time.....
This is a strange weapon. It is so decorative that it is almost useless as a fighting implement. It reminds me of African swords: too artistic to be of real use. Not for nothing did Lazes use large kindjals as well.
Lazes are descendants of the Byzanthinians who established the Trabzon Empire in 1241 under the leadership of the grandsons of Andronicus I and were (and still are!) called Romei. They were conquered by the Ottomans in 1461 and were converted to Islam (likely, voluntarily, since the Ottoman Turks were remarkably liberal about religious beliefs of their subjects). Nevertheless, Lazes did not enjoy great reputation.
I'd like to cite some info from the book of G.E. Vvedensky "The Janissaries" (St. Petersburg, 2003). In it he cites a book "The history of the Janissaries corps" published in Moscow in 1987 (it was translated, but he never mentioned the original). To be fully politically correct, I would like to say that I do not want to insult anybody. Please, do not kill the messenger.

" It was against the law to recruit Trabzonians into the Janissari units.This is why: not only the depravity of Trabzonians exceeds anything imaginable, not a single Zaim or Sipakhi among them ever exhibited any bravery or gallantry. They committed only deception and evil".
Sultan Selim I ruled in Trabzon between 1512 to 1520 and, according to his own experience, ordered to recruit them into the Janissari units as informers to prevent rebellions.
" The Trabzonians are evil people,deceivers by nature. As soon as one of them enters, it becomes impossible for 4-5 janissaries to get together. With time, their lying nature became obvious and well known and the very name Laz caused just laughter"
As a matter of fact, people who could swindle the entire Ottoman Empire must have been a fine breed: kind of Good Soldier Svejk with luxurious moustaches and a fez. Next time I go to Turkey, I shall do my best to go to Trabzon and have a glass of Yeni Raki with a local smuggler!

ham · 12th October 2005, 03:52 AM

Gentlemen,

I take strong exception to the preceding response. Due perhaps to a lack of actual knowledge, it completely diverges from the discussion of a little-known type of weapon, and instead revels in the banalities of ethnic slurs-- despite disclaimers to the contrary, it is not in the slightest germane to the question, nor is it appropriate to this forum, particularly in response to the earnest query of a new member. I think Ariel owes the Forum, and its multiethnic membership, an apology.
The Black Sea yatagan is a fine piece of design work which is entirely effective for its purpose-- i.e., a close-range cutting weapon. It's popularity shows a distinctly high correlation among warlike peoples who, for a variety of reasons, tended to do battle on foot rather than horseback.
It is eminently suited to the drawcut, for which the saber was used extensively in the Iranian and Ottoman empires by mounted troops; here we have the next degree of development: a simpler weapon to produce than a saber, the compactness and curvature of which required a far shorter arc to swing. This was capable of delivering blows with devastating effect-- even on foot. This should be apparent to anyone who has had the opportunity to swing one of these swords (rather than attempting to thrust with it.) Further, its thickness allowed it to cut through even the heavy goathair cloaks worn throughout Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus.
Regarding raki: a forum member once said, de gustibus non est disputandum... a phrase which in this case is best translated as "there is no accounting for taste"-- IMHO if one hasn't tried Tekir Dag, one hasn't truly had raki.

Sincerely,

Ham

ariel · 12th October 2005, 05:03 AM

I did not intend to offend anybody and just cited some information from a respectable book dedicated to the history of the Ottoman military system. The accounts of the ancient travellers and the local lore are germane to our discussions with full understanding that some may be just prejuduces and slurs. If anybody got offended by these quotations, I readily and immediately apologize although I was not their author.
Black Sea Yataghan (or Laz Bicagi) is one of my favourites, but it is far too fancy for real fights: its point is too thin and bendable, its curvature makes no sense (except from purely esthetic point of view) and requires incredibly bulky scabbard, its balance is atrocious (second only to Flyssa), and its pommel does not allow for wrist movements. It is neither a cavalry weapon nor a close encounter infantry blade. No swordsman in his right mind would choose it if a Kindjal or Shashka were available. But... it is beautiful, no doubt about it!
As to raki.... Ham, sorry to disappoint you, but no Turkish Raki or its Greek equvalent, Ouzo, can compare to Lebanese Arak from Zahle.

Ahriman · 12th October 2005, 10:15 AM

..?
I mean, how thin is "too thin"? 1-2mm at the foible is absolutely enough (in my experience, at least) for cleaving through meat and thinner bones without bending... and if you do a little calculation, you'll see that most european cutting blades (sorry for always using them as examples) have a thickness at about that at the foible, even as they were needed to face rigid plate defense. After all, why would it be called "foible"?

Balance: I didn't have a chance to wield one so far, but I don't think that it'd have a worse balance than my training swords... 50cm from the quillon for a 110cm "blade", overall weight being 12 kg... It strenghtens the wrist quite well... after that, anything lighter or better balanced will feel like feathers. And I think that a more forward balance point will do better for slashes, just as in the case of machetes.
When I was practising in a gladiator school as a dimacheris (two-sworder), I used almost exactly the same blade shape, with forward balance... They were good for me.

Pommel: A question has arised in me. Isn't it possible that they used the same "thumb grip" as the europeans? I mean, there are a few cuts (zwerchau and krumphau) where you "turn" the hilt with 90° in your hands, so the long edge is to the left, while the short is to the right.
In the case of yataghans, it would place the point to the "outside" and the edge to the "inside".
The question came from the posted picture. It looks like that the hilt is wider in the "wrong" direction... so it would be comfortable if you grip it in the thumb grip... so with extended arms the blade would be paralell to the ground. This way, you could use it either for cutting or thursting... try doing a few zwerchauen with it... it would make descending cuts more difficult, but not impossible, while making ascending cuts easier and faster, and making it possible to use the zwerch, which can instantly stop a descending cut while killing the opponent...
And you could use it for bashing thrusts aside. Imagine a low or central straight thrust coming towards you for sake of simplicity. If you make a wipe with the blade, you'll have the point at about the groin of the attacker. A little upward wrist move... Btw, this is almost the krumphau. And you can take out most strikes with it.

Sorry for the long post, I could tell you the same in about 2-3 sentences in my native language... If you can't understand, I can shot a few videos showing my idea. Or if I'm talking absolute idiotisms, or something that is well-known already, tell me, and shoot me down.

Rivkin · 13th October 2005, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ham

..., its thickness allowed it to cut through even the heavy goathair cloaks worn throughout Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus.

You mean burka ? I was taught that burka was mainly worn as a protection against arrows... It was somewhat effective against cuts due to the fact that burka is usually a few sizes bigger than the one who wears it.

Concerning the use of laz bicaqi I always thought it was basically a maritime, boarding weapon...

gp · 14th December 2023, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolviex

Hello and welcome to this Forum

. We all are impressed of knowledge you can find here.

I can't say anything about yataghans, Ariel is one of the members with great knowledge about these weapons, but here you can find some old threads with discussions about them

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002118.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html

Link 5

Is there a possibility that one of the mods can add a link to the Above ones 2118, 1960, 2445 as the give an error message

Ian · 14th December 2023, 11:29 PM

gp,

The old UBB forum was hacked and is now defunct. Those threads are lost.

Ian

Lee · 15th December 2023, 02:04 AM

You can still see some of the old UBB threads courtesy of the internet Archive's Wayback Machine.

Enter one of the URLs above on this page at http://wayback.archive.org/ and it will indicate what backup copies exist. Click the link and there it will be!

The original files were corrupted by some scumbag appending a extortion routine at the end of each file. They exist in deep quarantine and while it appeared possible to clean them using a text editor, I hesitate to try to repair them, as would I find all the contagion?

But the Wayback Machine can help you today.

gp · 15th December 2023, 02:29 PM

thnx a lot Gents !

9th October 2005, 08:04 PM	#1
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Welcome Hello and welcome to this Forum . We all are impressed of knowledge you can find here. I can't say anything about yataghans, Ariel is one of the members with great knowledge about these weapons, but here you can find some old threads with discussions about them http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002118.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001960.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002445.html Link 5 Last edited by wolviex; 9th October 2005 at 08:11 PM.

12th October 2005, 03:52 AM	#5
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	Gentlemen, I take strong exception to the preceding response. Due perhaps to a lack of actual knowledge, it completely diverges from the discussion of a little-known type of weapon, and instead revels in the banalities of ethnic slurs-- despite disclaimers to the contrary, it is not in the slightest germane to the question, nor is it appropriate to this forum, particularly in response to the earnest query of a new member. I think Ariel owes the Forum, and its multiethnic membership, an apology. The Black Sea yatagan is a fine piece of design work which is entirely effective for its purpose-- i.e., a close-range cutting weapon. It's popularity shows a distinctly high correlation among warlike peoples who, for a variety of reasons, tended to do battle on foot rather than horseback. It is eminently suited to the drawcut, for which the saber was used extensively in the Iranian and Ottoman empires by mounted troops; here we have the next degree of development: a simpler weapon to produce than a saber, the compactness and curvature of which required a far shorter arc to swing. This was capable of delivering blows with devastating effect-- even on foot. This should be apparent to anyone who has had the opportunity to swing one of these swords (rather than attempting to thrust with it.) Further, its thickness allowed it to cut through even the heavy goathair cloaks worn throughout Eastern Anatolia and the Caucasus. Regarding raki: a forum member once said, de gustibus non est disputandum... a phrase which in this case is best translated as "there is no accounting for taste"-- IMHO if one hasn't tried Tekir Dag, one hasn't truly had raki. Sincerely, Ham Last edited by ham; 12th October 2005 at 04:29 AM.

14th December 2023, 11:29 PM	#10
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,361	The old UBB Forum is dead gp, The old UBB forum was hacked and is now defunct. Those threads are lost. Ian

10th October 2005, 08:52 AM	#2
Miyamoto Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 44	Hi Wolviex, Thanks a lot! WOW! Tha was some interensting reading... Great discussion!

10th October 2005, 02:32 PM	#3
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Miyamoto, Welcome! I'm surprised that the moderators haven't said anything, but we don't give appraisals here. Otherwise, the black sea yataghans have been a topic of much discussion, as you've found out. It will be interesting to see what Ariel has to say. F

12th October 2005, 02:58 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, it's nice to enjoy the status of the "authority in the field", even though my only contribution to it was a short visit to the Askeri Muze in Istanbul and posting here what the local people knew for a long, long time..... This is a strange weapon. It is so decorative that it is almost useless as a fighting implement. It reminds me of African swords: too artistic to be of real use. Not for nothing did Lazes use large kindjals as well. Lazes are descendants of the Byzanthinians who established the Trabzon Empire in 1241 under the leadership of the grandsons of Andronicus I and were (and still are!) called Romei. They were conquered by the Ottomans in 1461 and were converted to Islam (likely, voluntarily, since the Ottoman Turks were remarkably liberal about religious beliefs of their subjects). Nevertheless, Lazes did not enjoy great reputation. I'd like to cite some info from the book of G.E. Vvedensky "The Janissaries" (St. Petersburg, 2003). In it he cites a book "The history of the Janissaries corps" published in Moscow in 1987 (it was translated, but he never mentioned the original). To be fully politically correct, I would like to say that I do not want to insult anybody. Please, do not kill the messenger. " It was against the law to recruit Trabzonians into the Janissari units.This is why: not only the depravity of Trabzonians exceeds anything imaginable, not a single Zaim or Sipakhi among them ever exhibited any bravery or gallantry. They committed only deception and evil". Sultan Selim I ruled in Trabzon between 1512 to 1520 and, according to his own experience, ordered to recruit them into the Janissari units as informers to prevent rebellions. " The Trabzonians are evil people,deceivers by nature. As soon as one of them enters, it becomes impossible for 4-5 janissaries to get together. With time, their lying nature became obvious and well known and the very name Laz caused just laughter" As a matter of fact, people who could swindle the entire Ottoman Empire must have been a fine breed: kind of Good Soldier Svejk with luxurious moustaches and a fez. Next time I go to Turkey, I shall do my best to go to Trabzon and have a glass of Yeni Raki with a local smuggler!

12th October 2005, 05:03 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I did not intend to offend anybody and just cited some information from a respectable book dedicated to the history of the Ottoman military system. The accounts of the ancient travellers and the local lore are germane to our discussions with full understanding that some may be just prejuduces and slurs. If anybody got offended by these quotations, I readily and immediately apologize although I was not their author. Black Sea Yataghan (or Laz Bicagi) is one of my favourites, but it is far too fancy for real fights: its point is too thin and bendable, its curvature makes no sense (except from purely esthetic point of view) and requires incredibly bulky scabbard, its balance is atrocious (second only to Flyssa), and its pommel does not allow for wrist movements. It is neither a cavalry weapon nor a close encounter infantry blade. No swordsman in his right mind would choose it if a Kindjal or Shashka were available. But... it is beautiful, no doubt about it! As to raki.... Ham, sorry to disappoint you, but no Turkish Raki or its Greek equvalent, Ouzo, can compare to Lebanese Arak from Zahle.

12th October 2005, 10:15 AM	#7
Ahriman Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Hungary Posts: 72	..? I mean, how thin is "too thin"? 1-2mm at the foible is absolutely enough (in my experience, at least) for cleaving through meat and thinner bones without bending... and if you do a little calculation, you'll see that most european cutting blades (sorry for always using them as examples) have a thickness at about that at the foible, even as they were needed to face rigid plate defense. After all, why would it be called "foible"? Balance: I didn't have a chance to wield one so far, but I don't think that it'd have a worse balance than my training swords... 50cm from the quillon for a 110cm "blade", overall weight being 12 kg... It strenghtens the wrist quite well... after that, anything lighter or better balanced will feel like feathers. And I think that a more forward balance point will do better for slashes, just as in the case of machetes. When I was practising in a gladiator school as a dimacheris (two-sworder), I used almost exactly the same blade shape, with forward balance... They were good for me. Pommel: A question has arised in me. Isn't it possible that they used the same "thumb grip" as the europeans? I mean, there are a few cuts (zwerchau and krumphau) where you "turn" the hilt with 90° in your hands, so the long edge is to the left, while the short is to the right. In the case of yataghans, it would place the point to the "outside" and the edge to the "inside". The question came from the posted picture. It looks like that the hilt is wider in the "wrong" direction... so it would be comfortable if you grip it in the thumb grip... so with extended arms the blade would be paralell to the ground. This way, you could use it either for cutting or thursting... try doing a few zwerchauen with it... it would make descending cuts more difficult, but not impossible, while making ascending cuts easier and faster, and making it possible to use the zwerch, which can instantly stop a descending cut while killing the opponent... And you could use it for bashing thrusts aside. Imagine a low or central straight thrust coming towards you for sake of simplicity. If you make a wipe with the blade, you'll have the point at about the groin of the attacker. A little upward wrist move... Btw, this is almost the krumphau. And you can take out most strikes with it. Sorry for the long post, I could tell you the same in about 2-3 sentences in my native language... If you can't understand, I can shot a few videos showing my idea. Or if I'm talking absolute idiotisms, or something that is well-known already, tell me, and shoot me down.

15th December 2023, 02:04 AM	#11
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	You can still see some of the old UBB threads courtesy of the internet Archive's Wayback Machine. Enter one of the URLs above on this page at http://wayback.archive.org/ and it will indicate what backup copies exist. Click the link and there it will be! The original files were corrupted by some scumbag appending a extortion routine at the end of each file. They exist in deep quarantine and while it appeared possible to clean them using a text editor, I hesitate to try to repair them, as would I find all the contagion? But the Wayback Machine can help you today.

15th December 2023, 02:29 PM	#12
gp Member Join Date: May 2020 Posts: 823	thnx a lot Gents !