What kind of sword is this???

Rick · 6th March 2013, 12:00 AM

If I could see the engraving down the blade better, I might suggest Dutch East Indies, a la Tjikeroeh .

M ELEY · 6th March 2013, 02:14 AM

Hmmm...One off is definitely right, but a very well made sword. I also saw the general pattern of the French Gladius, as Robert mentioned. Likewise, Carlos brings up a good point with the de mars patterns. The star and general shape of the sword, including the horn grip, reminded me of some of the Chinese jian patterns circa Boxer period. The workmanship is top-notch. The fittings appear to be pewter? And the design by which they are cut reminds one of some of the Chinese patterns I've seen. A wood scabbard is very atypical of French patterns. I've never seen a Spanish colonial piece in this shape, although the materials are right. The floral decor does resemble some of the Span types, but not unheard of on Chinese pieces as well. My vote, for what its worth, is Chinese in imitation of Euro types from the same period (c. 1850's)

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2013, 03:11 AM

Truly an anamoly, and I am inclined to go along with the Spanish colonial gestalt, with indicators to the Philippines. I feel that the initials and the pentagram are likely to one of the Insurrecto groups, and as noted the floral geometric pattern resemble Spanish style. It almost seems like I have seen someting similar at some point with this kind of star symbol with Filipino association but cannot locate in notes.
The resemblances to the French Ecole de Mars noted are reasonable in that there is a degree of neoclassic styling in similar sense, as mentioned with the gladius comparison. This symmetrical center point broadsword blade and the heavy block forte recall French and American patterns of infantry swords from Napoleonic into the US Civil War (the Ames M1833), with these patterned after the Roman gladius.

Im sure those out there specializing in Filipino weapons might help us out in determining if the inscribed star and initials might be from there.

David · 6th March 2013, 05:10 AM

Not the same style at all, but here is another Spanish Colonial sword with the initials "SB" on it (plus an extra "B").
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15261
I also lean toward Philippines based on materials. Looks like i really nice sword.
BTW, since it's been mentioned more than one, i would like to point out that the symbol on the blade is a 5-pointed star, but technically it is not a "pentagram". A pentagram is literally "five lines" and denotes 5-pointed stars created with just 5 crossing lines. The 5-pointed star definitely has some historical connection with the Philippines, though generally it is not depicted alone, but with a half moon as a symbol of Islam or in groups of 3 along with a sun symbol as it first appeared on the flag in 1898. I've never seen this exact style of star with the internal "stick figure", but it could still be from the Philippines.

VVV · 6th March 2013, 05:47 AM

Thanks for all interesting comments and references!

David, I am sorry for being sloppy with how I used the term pentagram, of course you are correct on this.

Michael

M ELEY · 6th March 2013, 08:02 AM

Opps! Wasn't paying attention to the 'SB' lettering! Retract the Chinese conjecture! I hadn't thought about the colonial Spanish Philippine connection (always stuck in the Amer SW and Indies, I guess!). Would like to see more examples of that interesting combination of cultures.

Atlantia · 6th March 2013, 11:28 AM

Hmmm, this type of horn and the shape of the handle (and is that a large horn 'washer' between the hilt and guard?) reminds me of the huge Golok I've got below, which took me to Java and then to Sumatra. The faceted star reminded me of something I'd seen about Sumatra in WW2 and the Japanese, which took me to this:
http://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoSumSel.htm

"In 1942 the Gouvernement Sumatra, created in 1938 was occupied by Japanese Forces and placed under the jurisdiction of the 25th Army. This army had a five-pointed faceted star as its emblem."

Just some thoughts.
Beautiful sword BTW! Congratulations.

David · 6th March 2013, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Thanks for all interesting comments and references!

David, I am sorry for being sloppy with how I used the term pentagram, of course you are correct on this.

Michael

No worries Michael and you weren't the only one or i wouldn't have bothered commenting. I just didn't want to see folks starting to infer some occult references here which always pop up around the use of the pentagram. This star seems to be on a different track.

Jim McDougall · 6th March 2013, 03:42 PM

Outstanding input Gene!!! Thank you for the data and illustration of that 'faceted five point star'.
David, I would like to thank you as well for the correction on the character of this five point star on the sword, which is as you well point out, emphatically not a pentagram. That was quite careless of me as I know full well that a pentagram is with intersecting lines and this differently structured star is of course not the same, I simply used the term in error.
I think too often many of us forget that certain terms which have become deeply imbedded in occult circumstances are best avoided unless used properly. Very nicely explained.

6th March 2013, 11:28 AM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hmmm, this type of horn and the shape of the handle (and is that a large horn 'washer' between the hilt and guard?) reminds me of the huge Golok I've got below, which took me to Java and then to Sumatra. The faceted star reminded me of something I'd seen about Sumatra in WW2 and the Japanese, which took me to this: http://www.hubert-herald.nl/IndoSumSel.htm "In 1942 the Gouvernement Sumatra, created in 1938 was occupied by Japanese Forces and placed under the jurisdiction of the 25th Army. This army had a five-pointed faceted star as its emblem." Just some thoughts. Beautiful sword BTW! Congratulations. Attached Images

6th March 2013, 12:00 AM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	If I could see the engraving down the blade better, I might suggest Dutch East Indies, a la Tjikeroeh .

6th March 2013, 02:14 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hmmm...One off is definitely right, but a very well made sword. I also saw the general pattern of the French Gladius, as Robert mentioned. Likewise, Carlos brings up a good point with the de mars patterns. The star and general shape of the sword, including the horn grip, reminded me of some of the Chinese jian patterns circa Boxer period. The workmanship is top-notch. The fittings appear to be pewter? And the design by which they are cut reminds one of some of the Chinese patterns I've seen. A wood scabbard is very atypical of French patterns. I've never seen a Spanish colonial piece in this shape, although the materials are right. The floral decor does resemble some of the Span types, but not unheard of on Chinese pieces as well. My vote, for what its worth, is Chinese in imitation of Euro types from the same period (c. 1850's)

6th March 2013, 03:11 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Truly an anamoly, and I am inclined to go along with the Spanish colonial gestalt, with indicators to the Philippines. I feel that the initials and the pentagram are likely to one of the Insurrecto groups, and as noted the floral geometric pattern resemble Spanish style. It almost seems like I have seen someting similar at some point with this kind of star symbol with Filipino association but cannot locate in notes. The resemblances to the French Ecole de Mars noted are reasonable in that there is a degree of neoclassic styling in similar sense, as mentioned with the gladius comparison. This symmetrical center point broadsword blade and the heavy block forte recall French and American patterns of infantry swords from Napoleonic into the US Civil War (the Ames M1833), with these patterned after the Roman gladius. Im sure those out there specializing in Filipino weapons might help us out in determining if the inscribed star and initials might be from there.

6th March 2013, 05:10 AM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Not the same style at all, but here is another Spanish Colonial sword with the initials "SB" on it (plus an extra "B"). http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15261 I also lean toward Philippines based on materials. Looks like i really nice sword. BTW, since it's been mentioned more than one, i would like to point out that the symbol on the blade is a 5-pointed star, but technically it is not a "pentagram". A pentagram is literally "five lines" and denotes 5-pointed stars created with just 5 crossing lines. The 5-pointed star definitely has some historical connection with the Philippines, though generally it is not depicted alone, but with a half moon as a symbol of Islam or in groups of 3 along with a sun symbol as it first appeared on the flag in 1898. I've never seen this exact style of star with the internal "stick figure", but it could still be from the Philippines.

6th March 2013, 05:47 AM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for all interesting comments and references! David, I am sorry for being sloppy with how I used the term pentagram, of course you are correct on this. Michael

6th March 2013, 08:02 AM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Opps! Wasn't paying attention to the 'SB' lettering! Retract the Chinese conjecture! I hadn't thought about the colonial Spanish Philippine connection (always stuck in the Amer SW and Indies, I guess!). Would like to see more examples of that interesting combination of cultures.

6th March 2013, 03:42 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Outstanding input Gene!!! Thank you for the data and illustration of that 'faceted five point star'. David, I would like to thank you as well for the correction on the character of this five point star on the sword, which is as you well point out, emphatically not a pentagram. That was quite careless of me as I know full well that a pentagram is with intersecting lines and this differently structured star is of course not the same, I simply used the term in error. I think too often many of us forget that certain terms which have become deeply imbedded in occult circumstances are best avoided unless used properly. Very nicely explained.