East Javanese Keris(es) - Discussion

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

post 11

capu kagok---Maduro

wilah very possibly Tuban, but cannot be definite unless handled, stylistcally a bit of a mix, wouldn't surprise if Tuban style but Maduro manuftr. Actually, this is a pretty interesting blade, I'm not sure, but I think I can see a "fallen brick" blumbangan, and this can point towards Pjjrn. but there are other things that do not say Pjjrn. As is often the case I'd really need to handle it.

Thank you very much for comment Alan. Someone else with a very good knowledge has told me before that this is a possible Tuban blade. So the attribution East Jawa seems correct. What do you mean by "fallen brick"? Maybe I can try to take different pictures to show it better.
How do you would call the pamor? Udan mas?

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Fallen brick is when the blumbangan is wider than it is tall.

Yes, I'd give this pamor as udan mas, but it is possible that the blade is very thin, if this is the case it is most likely a Tuban blade that started life as a wos wutah and was turned into udan mas to make it more saleable.

Tuban was trading port and blades came from all over to sell as trade items both to locals and for export, styles change a bit depending on when made, but because Tuban blades were good beefy blades in their original form, they were also the blade of choice for re-manufacture when that was being done.

100% original Tuban blades are now pretty scarce, and because of this they seem to have been elevated a bit in price, simply because of scarcity.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Fallen brick is when the blumbangan is wider than it is tall.

Yes, I'd give this pamor as udan mas, but it is possible that the blade is very thin, if this is the case it is most likely a Tuban blade that started life as a wos wutah and was turned into udan mas to make it more saleable.

Tuban was trading port and blades came from all over to sell as trade items both to locals and for export, styles change a bit depending on when made, but because Tuban blades were good beefy blades in their original form, they were also the blade of choice for re-manufacture when that was being done.

100% original Tuban blades are now pretty scarce, and because of this they seem to have been elevated a bit in price, simply because of scarcity.

Now I understand! Yes, blumbangan is a little bit wider than it is tall, maybe 1,5 until 2 mm. The blade is still thick. I get this keris with a other handle but with this sarung in very poor condition and was very astonished when I have seen the blade new stained. The sarung was restored much later because it was also in a very very poor condition.

[A. G. Maisey]

Detlef, any blade can go into any dress, and once there, you match the hilt to the scabbard, and you call it a such& such keris in accordance with the scabbard & hilt, but if you then remove the blade so it can be seen, you classify the blade into the appropriate tangguh.

Bearing in mind that we don't really know exactly where this scabbard is from, it is probably OK to fit a north coast hilt.

[A. G. Maisey]

You might be right Jean. I haven't been able to have a good look at this blade yet, I've exceeded my usage allowance and the net has slowed to a crawl. I won't comment on this blade until I can download it and play around a bit with it in PS

[simatua]

another figural keris...... Iam nor sure this is an old one ( modifacation ?) or an kamardikan Madura keris.

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Just a few thoughts which occurred while reading this thread.
I decided to post them, just in case something means something to somebody. . On the other hand, everything may be totally irrelevant!
If it's all useless info, i.e. garbage, then my post can be deleted:

- As I often like to mention, there are a lot of different keris protocols out there.
Some older than others.

Alan, I believe, adheres to the Kartasura/Surakarta protocols.
The governing manuscripts are composed no earlier than 19thC.(with the exception of one of those dealing with keris forms; attributable(?) to Sunan Kalijaga composed in c.1482).
It appears that they have become the de facto, de jure, protocol of the mainstream.
It saddens me that even those who have their own protocols choose to abandon them and join the mainstream.
But, I suppose that's the way of the world today.

- Pangeran Wijil's manuscript on the history of empus was composed c. 1726-45. So not long ago in terms of keris history.

- As regards Cirebon:
The Sunda still regard Cirebon as Sunda, albeit considered to be highly 'Jawa-nized'. It is interesting though that many members of its royal family still consider themselves Sunda, while a majority(?) of the people consider themselves as 'Cirebon'.
It was a centre of Muslim power and recognized the political sovereignty of Mataram via a treaty in 1590.
Hanyokrokusumo referred to the Sultan of Cirebon (who also became his father-in-law) as 'teacher'.

- Pajajaran: I consider a Jawa-construct. There is no reference to a 'Pajajaran' kingdom in Sunda manuscripts.
The name only appears in Jawa manuscripts, of anonymous authorship and composed/compiled no earlier than late 19thC.

- Bear in mind that many 'primary sources' may be 'anonymous' and 'oral tradition' as well as historiology.

- Again, it boils down to what one believes in/ has faith in or what one wants to believe in/wants to have faith in.


Please excuse the interruption.

Best,