East Javanese Keris(es) - Discussion

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by yuuzan

And what about ladrang forms. I don't have any Jogya ladrang myself so I still find it difficult to identify these. Are the ladrang forms in the photos above in Jogya style? Do they also appear less elegant in comparison to those of Jogya?

Jeans second and my third examples are ladrang sheaths typical for East Java but for Madura as well. The style is very similar to the Jogya branggah sheaths like Jean has shown.

Regards,

Detlef

[Bjorn]

Sajen, Jean,

Thank you for your contributions. From what I understand, the situation for the branggah style is analogous to that of the gayaman, i.e. the court styles (Solo, Jogya) are highly developed and elegant while the East Javanese styles are cruder copies of these refines court styles.

What I find interesting now is that it appears that in East Java the common style for gayaman wronkos is modelled on the Solo style while the ceremonial wrongkos (branggah) are derivative of the Jogya style.

Does anyone have any knowledge or theories on why this is? Why don't we see both styles being used (Solo gayaman and ladrang derivatives as well as Jogya gayaman and branggah derivatives)?

And relatedly, why is it that no local designs were developed in East Java? Madura features the East Java-type branggah - and possibly also the East Java-type gayaman - but also developed different styles unique to Madura. Were there less skilled craftsmen in East Java possibly? Was it too much of a backwater (Madura had 1 or 2 courts which would have contributed to finer and more refined wrongkos) without the presence of local courts? Or did people consider Solo and Jogya as paradigms of Javanese culture worthy to be emulated?

A lot of questions, and I hope we can slowly but steadily find some answers!

[A. G. Maisey]

Well, it looks as if this thread is well and truly flying, however, I do not have time to keep up with it.

At the moment I'm more than a little busy, and in 9 days I fly out to Solo.

The posts that have already been made to this thread could keep me busy for probably half a day.

If I get a little time further down the track I'll float a few of my opinions, but in the meantime, how about if somebody else floats a few opinions, along with the reasons for the opinions?

[A. G. Maisey]

As I have already said, I'm very short on time.

Here are some very quick, first impressions along with the usual qualification that if I had it my hand I could well say something different.

Post 8.

pic #1
Stylistically majapahit---long slow luk, boto adeg, thus classifiable as East Jawa, wrongko east Jawa.

#2

Madura is fond of capu kagok as is Solo. This keris doesn't look Solo to me, I think maybe coastal East Jawa, wr. Madura.

#3

mamas SW , complex pamor in light blade, probably Jatim/ Maduro

Post 9

#1

Jateng, Solo and maybe a Koripan wilahan --- can't be positive without physical insp.

post 10

#1

very tempted to give Jatim, wilah might be Pjjrn.:- pamor, boto adeg, but only stylistically and it might look different in the hand.

post 11

capu kagok---Maduro

wilah very possibly Tuban, but cannot be definite unless handled, stylistcally a bit of a mix, wouldn't surprise if Tuban style but Maduro manuftr. Actually, this is a pretty interesting blade, I'm not sure, but I think I can see a "fallen brick" blumbangan, and this can point towards Pjjrn. but there are other things that do not say Pjjrn. As is often the case I'd really need to handle it.

post 12

need to handle it

[Jean]

Hello Yuuzan,
Alan has given very interesting opinions about the posted krisses and it shows how difficult it is to properly identify a kris from continental East Java.
By the way when he refers to Jatim it means Jawa Timur or East Java and he rightly compares the ladrang sheaths from East Java to the (thick) kagog capu style from Solo, see attached picture.
Regards

[Bjorn]

Alan, as always, your opinions are greatly appreciated. I look forward to hearing more when you have more time.

Jean, many thanks for that beautiful photo of the capu kagog style (; do you happen to know the literal meaning of these words?). I find this little tidbit of knowledge to be of great value as I had no idea that this style actually originated in Solo. It's lovely to see how this Solo example clearly features an elegant curve on the right part of the wrongko while this feature is largely absent in those from Madura/East Jawa.

It thus seems that I made a completely incorrect inference in one of my earlier posts: the East Jawa-type ladrang being based on the Jogya branggah. In fact, it seems that style is very much based on a Solonese style.

Then it would seem that East Jawa wrongkos are completely modelled on Solo types. This, to me, raises interesting questions as to the diffusion of these styles over time. As Alan has mentioned in other threads, there were ties between the keraton of Solo and Sumenep (Madura); and the capu kagok style was popular on Madura as well (likely as a result of these ties). But how did this style diffuse to East Jawa? Did it come straight from Solo, or did it reach the hinterland of East Jawa via Madurese traders/contacts?

This discussion is definitely providing me with a lot of food for thought!

[A. G. Maisey]

On the subject of kagok capu.

In real life, on the ground, in Solo, we might refer to these as kagok, as capu, as kagok capu, or as capu muda.

There is slight variation in form between capu muda and kagok capu, and there is slight variation in form between CK from Solo and CK from Madura, also slight variation between these two "leaders", and the other places that use this overall form, those other places are just about anywhere that is not under direct influence of a kraton, places like along the north coast, Madiun etc, etc, etc.

In Solo this form used to be a form favoured by older men. The actual name "capu kagok" is not particularly flattering it implies roundness and clumsiness --- possibly something that we more senior people have in ample quantities.

There may be somebody who can positively identify variation between these intermingled forms, but I've never met him, or anybody who knows him. Thus, if we encounter this form we tend to just label it as CK, even though it might strictly be something else. If it has a wooden gandar it will probably get labelled Maduro, if a pendok, especially a Solo or Jateng pendok it will get labelled as Solo, but then if that Solo outfit has a Maduro wilah there will be an about face and it will be a Maduro deal. If there are no definite indicators you start to look a little harder and little more critically until you eliminate everything except a couple or three choices, and then you flip a coin.

However, let me make this point:- it is in my experience only hobbyist collectors outside of Jawa who are particularly concerned about this ID of dress. In Jawa itself it is something of academic interest but certainly not a matter of any importance, what is important is the classification of the blade and the overall quality of workmanship and material.

Why is it so?

Because as with any investment vehicle it is the bottom line that counts:-

how much is it worth?

what the entire keris is worth is based upon classification of the wilah and overall quality of workmanship.

The dress only has substantial value if it is of excellent quality.

The wilah only has substantial value if it has excellent quality, the degree of value then is determined primarily by tangguh.

What we're talking here is Javanese standards, and these are standards that are ingrained into the keris market in Central Jawa, and into the students and collectors of keris in Central Jawa. What goes on outsaide Jateng might as well be going on in outer space as far as people in Central Jawa are concerned. This idea of classification based on origin of dress is vaguely interesting, but it is totally unimportant to the real world, because the real world is based on money. Money is something that Javanese people understand very, very well.

What we're involved in with this thread, and the concept at its foundations is something that I regard as a wholly outside of Jawa attitude. I say "outside of Jawa", because this attitude seems to be prevalent with collectors in Jakarta too.

The questions that Yuuzan has raised are undoubtedly valid questions to his mind, and probably to the minds of others who engage in our discussions here, but for me, these are all very much side issues and frankly not something I ever give much thought to. When I look at any keris, the first thing that enters my mind is the quality question:- am I looking something of quality, or am I looking at a piece of garbage? Only later, sometimes much later, will I begin to note indicators that might give some indication of geographic point of origin.

When we engage in the tangguh game, one of the first things that we look at is the gonjo, not just the sirah cecak which is a very important indicator, but also the angle of the top of the gonjo. Have a look at post #9. Unquestionably Jateng. Why? Look at the top of the gonjo. A Jateng wilah matches the curve in a wrongko virtually always. A Wilah from the west, or the east, or most particularly from Maduro is very often flat, thin ugly. This #9 wilah is a poor copy of a M'ram keris --- well, it is still M'ram, but not what it might look like. It has characteristics of M'ram SA, but very much more coarse. In the markets in Jateng most salesmen would try to pass it off as M'ram SA. But its not. Its most likely Koripan, might be Godean, might be something else, but what I can see in the pic says Koripan.It sure ain't M'ram SA.

Look at the 7 luk wilah in the mamas SW. You will never, ever see a straight ugly gonjo like this on a Central Jawa blade. So where is it from? Jatim wr., Maduro style pamor --- if it looks like a duck it most probably is one, especially when we know with certainty that it sure ain't a rooster.

Jean considers I've floated some "interesting" opinions. I don't think so. What I've done is put in writing the sort of first impressions that anybody who understands this game would probably form. Minor variations perhaps, but the rules of the game are pretty well known, well, at least in Jawa they are, and if you have a few people with similar levels of knowledge, the disagreement is mostly in the detail, not in the big picture.After a while, this ID business becomes second nature, you don't really think too much about it, you look at something and it fits the template in your mind, but then you should be able to explain why it fits the template, and this is something that a lot of people cannot do.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

post 11

capu kagok---Maduro

wilah very possibly Tuban, but cannot be definite unless handled, stylistcally a bit of a mix, wouldn't surprise if Tuban style but Maduro manuftr. Actually, this is a pretty interesting blade, I'm not sure, but I think I can see a "fallen brick" blumbangan, and this can point towards Pjjrn. but there are other things that do not say Pjjrn. As is often the case I'd really need to handle it.

Thank you very much for comment Alan. Someone else with a very good knowledge has told me before that this is a possible Tuban blade. So the attribution East Jawa seems correct. What do you mean by "fallen brick"? Maybe I can try to take different pictures to show it better.
How do you would call the pamor? Udan mas?

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Fallen brick is when the blumbangan is wider than it is tall.

Yes, I'd give this pamor as udan mas, but it is possible that the blade is very thin, if this is the case it is most likely a Tuban blade that started life as a wos wutah and was turned into udan mas to make it more saleable.

Tuban was trading port and blades came from all over to sell as trade items both to locals and for export, styles change a bit depending on when made, but because Tuban blades were good beefy blades in their original form, they were also the blade of choice for re-manufacture when that was being done.

100% original Tuban blades are now pretty scarce, and because of this they seem to have been elevated a bit in price, simply because of scarcity.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Fallen brick is when the blumbangan is wider than it is tall.

Yes, I'd give this pamor as udan mas, but it is possible that the blade is very thin, if this is the case it is most likely a Tuban blade that started life as a wos wutah and was turned into udan mas to make it more saleable.

Tuban was trading port and blades came from all over to sell as trade items both to locals and for export, styles change a bit depending on when made, but because Tuban blades were good beefy blades in their original form, they were also the blade of choice for re-manufacture when that was being done.

100% original Tuban blades are now pretty scarce, and because of this they seem to have been elevated a bit in price, simply because of scarcity.

Now I understand! Yes, blumbangan is a little bit wider than it is tall, maybe 1,5 until 2 mm. The blade is still thick. I get this keris with a other handle but with this sarung in very poor condition and was very astonished when I have seen the blade new stained. The sarung was restored much later because it was also in a very very poor condition.