Please help ID a Spadroon

Hotspur · 21st February 2013, 03:16 AM

Perhaps in lieu of a better photo, the fellow could do his best in offering a transcription of the letters. Edit to add that the French spadroon blades ae usually more epee like without a full lebgth fuller to the point.

Neat sword.

Cheers

GC

Fernando K · 21st February 2013, 01:34 PM

E B E E N S G R I B P R O

P A T R I A E P A T R I A

(¿?)

Fernando K

Fernando K · 21st February 2013, 01:40 PM

E B E E N S G R I B / P A T R I A E

P R O / P A T R I A

Fernando K

fernando · 21st February 2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

E B E E N S G R I B ...

Meaning ?

Richard G · 21st February 2013, 05:13 PM

Two little oddities I'd like to point out:-
1, It is not too difficult to see a grenade in the hilt, but as far as I am aware steel hilted English weapons of this time were pretty well restricted to light infantry or rifle regiments. Brass (gilt) would have been more normal.
2, The inscriptions on the forte are inscribed whereas the turks head etc. are etched. I have seen etching scribed for greater detail but this seems half and half.
Regards
Richard

Jim McDougall · 22nd February 2013, 12:02 AM

Excellent points Richard. In looking at the hilt, it is also interesting that the groupings of five 'beads' often found on the crossguard and knuckleguard are absent. I just know Ive seen this device in the crossguard somewhere, but as yet have not found it, despite of course being seemingly a grenade.
While it remains tempting to consider this French, who as noted were using this type hilt and blade in this time, the shape of the pommel, sword knot ring at top of knuckleguard and reeded ivory grip seem profoundly English.
In looking at the blade, it is tempting to regard this blade motif as of the 'Caissagnard' fashion, a noted French location where blades apparantly were decorated with 'magical' motif which often included the 'blackamoor' head (Boutell, 1931), a heraldic term for Turks head. These designs, along with certain Christian talismanic devices such as the latticework and invocational or patriotic mottos from Hungarian motifs seem to have been adopted in Solingen for exported blades in the 18th century. Actually the Turks head seen on this example matches exactly a blade on a French sword, but these blades were of course often from Solingen, much as were English blades.

The indecipherable words in the inscription seem to correspond to similarly lettered words used in a talismanic sense in what is typically associated with devices known as the 'Transylvanian knot' in Hungary (in my earlier post I had misnoted this as the Hungarian knot). These are quite likely to be acrostics rather than actual words similar to inscriptions on many early European blades which are invocational either magically or religiously.

With British officers of these times, they had wide latitude as far as regulations in military fashion, and could have acquired swords outside the standards typically observed. Also, and I may be off base, but it seems that ebony and dark grips were often keenly favored on French officers swords, though obviously not without exceptions, and I think that has me still favoring English.

Richard G · 22nd February 2013, 09:53 PM

Jim,
I agree, I think many would describe this as an "unusual" English hilt.

The blade is a little more problematic. On an English sword of this era (even with a German blade) I think it would have been more usual for the forte to have been reserved for the makers or retailers name or trademark, and "Pro Patria" etc. to be on the middle of the blade. Also I struggle to make any sense of "E B E E N S G R I B".

This blade almost looks as if made for wholesale with an etched Turks head etc. and the forte left deliberately blank to be available for inscription by the buyer.

I don't think it is a fake, or anything like that, but it does have these anomalies.
Regards
Richard

22nd February 2013, 12:02 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Excellent points Richard. In looking at the hilt, it is also interesting that the groupings of five 'beads' often found on the crossguard and knuckleguard are absent. I just know Ive seen this device in the crossguard somewhere, but as yet have not found it, despite of course being seemingly a grenade. While it remains tempting to consider this French, who as noted were using this type hilt and blade in this time, the shape of the pommel, sword knot ring at top of knuckleguard and reeded ivory grip seem profoundly English. In looking at the blade, it is tempting to regard this blade motif as of the 'Caissagnard' fashion, a noted French location where blades apparantly were decorated with 'magical' motif which often included the 'blackamoor' head (Boutell, 1931), a heraldic term for Turks head. These designs, along with certain Christian talismanic devices such as the latticework and invocational or patriotic mottos from Hungarian motifs seem to have been adopted in Solingen for exported blades in the 18th century. Actually the Turks head seen on this example matches exactly a blade on a French sword, but these blades were of course often from Solingen, much as were English blades. The indecipherable words in the inscription seem to correspond to similarly lettered words used in a talismanic sense in what is typically associated with devices known as the 'Transylvanian knot' in Hungary (in my earlier post I had misnoted this as the Hungarian knot). These are quite likely to be acrostics rather than actual words similar to inscriptions on many early European blades which are invocational either magically or religiously. With British officers of these times, they had wide latitude as far as regulations in military fashion, and could have acquired swords outside the standards typically observed. Also, and I may be off base, but it seems that ebony and dark grips were often keenly favored on French officers swords, though obviously not without exceptions, and I think that has me still favoring English. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 22nd February 2013 at 12:15 AM.

21st February 2013, 03:16 AM	#1
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 508	Perhaps in lieu of a better photo, the fellow could do his best in offering a transcription of the letters. Edit to add that the French spadroon blades ae usually more epee like without a full lebgth fuller to the point. Neat sword. Cheers GC

21st February 2013, 01:34 PM	#2
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	E B E E N S G R I B P R O P A T R I A E P A T R I A (¿?) Fernando K

21st February 2013, 01:40 PM	#3
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 671	E B E E N S G R I B / P A T R I A E P R O / P A T R I A Fernando K

21st February 2013, 05:13 PM	#5
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Two little oddities I'd like to point out:- 1, It is not too difficult to see a grenade in the hilt, but as far as I am aware steel hilted English weapons of this time were pretty well restricted to light infantry or rifle regiments. Brass (gilt) would have been more normal. 2, The inscriptions on the forte are inscribed whereas the turks head etc. are etched. I have seen etching scribed for greater detail but this seems half and half. Regards Richard

22nd February 2013, 09:53 PM	#7
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 409	Jim, I agree, I think many would describe this as an "unusual" English hilt. The blade is a little more problematic. On an English sword of this era (even with a German blade) I think it would have been more usual for the forte to have been reserved for the makers or retailers name or trademark, and "Pro Patria" etc. to be on the middle of the blade. Also I struggle to make any sense of "E B E E N S G R I B". This blade almost looks as if made for wholesale with an etched Turks head etc. and the forte left deliberately blank to be available for inscription by the buyer. I don't think it is a fake, or anything like that, but it does have these anomalies. Regards Richard