The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ So the question as far as you are concerned is; What influence if any did European Trade Blades have on the Omani Sayf?

My opinion is that the Omani Sayf may have no root at all in the European Trade blade system/style except in the odd European(copied) inscription on a few blades. My attention is focussed on the Yemeni derivative at Swedegreens thread which in turn copied style from Ottoman through Mamluke to Abassiid design. It is a serious point for research in Muscat Museum where I hope to report from soon. I shall certainly be on the lookout for any early Omani Sayfs to consider the Trade blade question.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

And therein lies my overall point.

In my opinion the blades in the thread you reference show clear European influence with the deep, central fullers, overall size and the period they are from. Whether those particular examples have European blades - the influence, to my eyes is there.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

And therein lies my overall point.

In my opinion the blades in the thread you reference show clear European influence with the deep, central fullers, overall size and the period they are from. Whether those particular examples have European blades - the influence, to my eyes is there.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain~ I can at a stretch agree on ''influence'' but caution on size since I've never seen two Omani Blades the same length width or with the same combination of fullers. I hope you can see the post above at #15 that I place as a possible contender for style copy... taking the ball rather away in another direction.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain~ I can at a stretch agree on ''influence'' but caution on size since I've never seen two Omani Blades the same length width or with the same combination of fullers. I hope you can see the post above at #15 that I place as a possible contender for style copy... taking the ball rather away in another direction.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

As always, it relates to cost and quality. Did Hadramaut have water driven hammers? One of the main reasons behind the economical production of blades in Solingen from a fairly early period... The ability to produce quality blades locally isn't necessarily an indication they could be produced cheaply or in a competitive volume.

By the 16th century Solingen was already making use of water driven mechanical hammers to increase the production of blade blanks. This was unusual in Europe at the time and as far as I know was not an industrial technique common in the Ottoman empire or Yemen... This industrialization only increased with time. I would also point out, to my understanding the Ottomans lost control of Yemen in the mid 17th century (principally Sana'a)?

Mechanical production of blade blanks increased production time about 5-6x over hand forging.

Solingen was the force it was because of the industrial tools they employed - allowing for a competitive edge, even when long distance transportation was factored in.

Cheers,

Iain