The Omani Sayf. ( The Omani Straight Dancing Sword)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

I'll just again say I think the combat or non combat question is irrelevant at the moment and is causing more confusion and questions than it needs to. See below...



Agree completely about the influence of muskets and other firearms however:



I think perhaps you are misunderstanding some of my previous points. I am not talking about these modern, flexible blades in a combat sense.

I am talking about where the form (not the flexibility aspect) was drawn from.



Again, see above I'm not talking about the modern flexible blades.



Because again, I'm not talking about blades with the flexibility aspect you are referencing. I'm discussing the common European trade blades - not some European trade blade with massive flex. So yes, in that sense you are talking about something that doesn't exist.



Because as you've said many times, in a modern context fighting blades aren't desirable. I've shown in previous threads sayfs with stiff blades and European marks. I can go and dig them out again I guess. Heck, I've seen fullered European blades on Omani battle sword hilts as well.



I think your last sentence is probably correct. The dancing sayf is simply a progression from a style derived from mating European trade blades to local hilts. Which explains the trade blade inspired shape and use of fullers on dance blades.

I think you have perhaps misinterpreted a few of my points because you are focusing on the flex aspect.

• I'm not talking about some trade blade with the flex of the dancing blades. I'm only talking about where the form/style of the flexible and locally made blades was taken from.
• That, from the evidence you've provided, trade blades proper are unlikely to be found in Omani hilts in the present day because they are not desirable - this doesn't mean this was always the case.
• That there's an obvious and very close link to other long hilted and trade blade using forms in neighboring areas.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ So the question as far as you are concerned is; What influence if any did European Trade Blades have on the Omani Sayf?

My opinion is that the Omani Sayf may have no root at all in the European Trade blade system/style except in the odd European(copied) inscription on a few blades. My attention is focussed on the Yemeni derivative at Swedegreens thread which in turn copied style from Ottoman through Mamluke to Abassiid design. It is a serious point for research in Muscat Museum where I hope to report from soon. I shall certainly be on the lookout for any early Omani Sayfs to consider the Trade blade question.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams All. Note to library on the origin of Omani Sayf style.

Here for comparison is the form of design style which may be responsible for the general design of the Dancing Sword (hilt and blade). The Straight Omani Sayf.

(In this respect the flexibility question is totally ignored..however newcomers may note that the Omani Sayf is flexible up to 90 degree bend and more at the tip whilst the Yemeni sword is relatively stiff and bends a few inches only.)

Picture 1.shows the more typical blade for the Yemeni weapon however other blades have been fitted to similar hilts such as the Ethiopian(German) blade shown lower.

Another picture demonstrates the similiarity between a sword in the Istanbul museum and the Yemeni sword.

As a transitional form there are many similarities in the Omani Sayf and the Yemeni sword. See picture 4. Are they linked?

It is posed here as an open question for comments.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ So the question as far as you are concerned is; What influence if any did European Trade Blades have on the Omani Sayf?

My opinion is that the Omani Sayf may have no root at all in the European Trade blade system/style except in the odd European(copied) inscription on a few blades. My attention is focussed on the Yemeni derivative at Swedegreens thread which in turn copied style from Ottoman through Mamluke to Abassiid design. It is a serious point for research in Muscat Museum where I hope to report from soon. I shall certainly be on the lookout for any early Omani Sayfs to consider the Trade blade question.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

And therein lies my overall point.

In my opinion the blades in the thread you reference show clear European influence with the deep, central fullers, overall size and the period they are from. Whether those particular examples have European blades - the influence, to my eyes is there.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

And therein lies my overall point.

In my opinion the blades in the thread you reference show clear European influence with the deep, central fullers, overall size and the period they are from. Whether those particular examples have European blades - the influence, to my eyes is there.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain~ I can at a stretch agree on ''influence'' but caution on size since I've never seen two Omani Blades the same length width or with the same combination of fullers. I hope you can see the post above at #15 that I place as a possible contender for style copy... taking the ball rather away in another direction.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain~ I can at a stretch agree on ''influence'' but caution on size since I've never seen two Omani Blades the same length width or with the same combination of fullers. I hope you can see the post above at #15 that I place as a possible contender for style copy... taking the ball rather away in another direction.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

I saw your post with images - can't say I see the Mamluk connection. The image you shows are dramatically different blade profiles from a very different time period than the point in time when the straight sayf was likely being introduced.

Regarding size, blade length is effected by hilting, including rehilting. Most straight sayf fall within 27-33 inches are so for blade length. I've seen plenty of images of sayf with similar triple fuller layouts, plenty with single fuller layouts...

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ~ I think the two (Yemeni Ottoman)are hugely similar in the hilt... not the blade so much. I think the Yemeni version has a much less expensive blade ... almost a utility mass produced type.

I think the Omani dancing sword is very similar to the Yemeni variant in all respects except flex..



Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim, the hilt comparison is fair enough and your point about blades is of course a nice way of saying why Euro trade blades were popular for these - utilitarian and mass produced. See my points in a previous post about why Euro trade blades had big uptake globally.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain ~Yes all very interesting... but can you envisage Yemen under intense Ottoman control/ influence previously... taking blades off Europe for these swords when they had a perfectly reasonable sword manufacturing base in the Hadramaut?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.