Blacksmith made ? sword for I.D. and comment

colin henshaw · 20th February 2013, 11:36 AM

Hi

Many thanks for the further input on this sword. I have read through all the posts again, however am a bit unclear as to the final conclusions. Is it possible to simply clarify the following points, although I understand this is not an exact science :-

a) Is the sword "Spanish Colonial" ?
b) What date range ?
c) Could it be described as "blacksmith made" ?
d) Was the blade made in the colonies or a trade import from Europe ?
e) What about the hilt - was this made in the colonies or elsewhere ?

I should point out that I would not describe the blade as of hexagonal section - it is shallow diamond - very shallow indeed, almost flat in places, also a bit irregular.

I am attaching some close-ups of the blade, which may be of help. The sword certainly has a "home-made" and primitive look to it, which of course prompted me to acquire it.

Much appreciated, its always good to learn new things - regards.

M ELEY · 20th February 2013, 01:49 PM

I think the final consensus is Spanish colonial. The blade and hilt both appear to be black-smith made. The horn grip consistent with espada ancha (and Brazilian cutlass, I might add), even the shape of the grip is typical, now that Jim pointed us in the right direction. Time period is a little sketchy, as Spanish colonial weapons, by definition, often followed earlier patterns. I would wager, being that it doesn't have multiple knuckle bows, nor the riveted bars to the hilt, that it's earlier. It mimics both colonial American, British and European cutlass patterns from the 1780-1810 era, so it's at most that old, perhaps up to the first quarter of the 19th century. I wouldn't put it past that, as that was after the independence of many of the Spanish territories and you start seeing swords resembling more of the contemporary forms of the day. Once again, I love the sword. It has great character, almost a 'folk art' quality to it. When you think about these pieces, even though they don't fetch the high prices that, say, a Spanish cup-hilt would attract, you have to remember that they are one-of-a-kind. Didn't mean to jump in, but just wanted to show my deep appreciation for this item!

colin henshaw · 22nd February 2013, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

I think the final consensus is Spanish colonial. The blade and hilt both appear to be black-smith made. The horn grip consistent with espada ancha (and Brazilian cutlass, I might add), even the shape of the grip is typical, now that Jim pointed us in the right direction. Time period is a little sketchy, as Spanish colonial weapons, by definition, often followed earlier patterns. I would wager, being that it doesn't have multiple knuckle bows, nor the riveted bars to the hilt, that it's earlier. It mimics both colonial American, British and European cutlass patterns from the 1780-1810 era, so it's at most that old, perhaps up to the first quarter of the 19th century. I wouldn't put it past that, as that was after the independence of many of the Spanish territories and you start seeing swords resembling more of the contemporary forms of the day. Once again, I love the sword. It has great character, almost a 'folk art' quality to it. When you think about these pieces, even though they don't fetch the high prices that, say, a Spanish cup-hilt would attract, you have to remember that they are one-of-a-kind. Didn't mean to jump in, but just wanted to show my deep appreciation for this item!

First class Mark, what an excellent source of knowledge the forum is !
No sure if it matters, but the handle is made of wood.

I will let you know if I decide to move the sword on.

Regards.

M ELEY · 22nd February 2013, 03:49 PM

Oops! Sorry about the mistake concerning the hilt materials. No, it doesn't change the outcome. Sometimes a picture isn't worth a thousand words. Nothing beats actually handling the 'beast'. Espada had hilts of both wood and horn and the pic made it appear yours could be the latter. I still wouldn't classify yours as a true espada ancha, but more of a Spanish colonial cutlass. The majority of the short-sword types typically had singe-edged curving blades with slat-wood/slat-horn grips (an important difference here from your rounded grip) that were sandwiched onto/riveted onto the tang. Your grip really does match the Amer colonial patterns of the period, thus my initial guess.

CutlassCollector · 22nd February 2013, 06:14 PM

Hi Colin,
Being new here I hesitated to suggest this earlier but I have run it past Jim McDougall and he agrees that it may be worth considering.
Your pictures show a lot of active corrosion and although WD40 and oil are good in most circumstances they work best on metal as opposed to oxides and it would be hard to exclude air and moisture completely over a long period so corrosion may continue.

There are products readily available online in small quantities and in non toxic, safe to use at home preparations, that will remove rust and render it inert long enough to seal it. The de-corroder fluid will remove some corrosion depending on how long it is left on so does require a bit of care and experiment, but it leaves the corrosion inactive. The museum 'wax' dries clear and gives a sealed non greasy surface which can be removed if needed.

Please be clear I am not in any way advocating shiny metal - just halting further corrosion.
In brief what your aiming for is to remove or deactivate the red rust - that's yesterdays corrosion - without removing the black inert patina of history.
You still end up with a rusty old sword but you have prevented further deterioration.
I'll not mention brand names here but if you want further info pm me.
Regards, CC

20th February 2013, 11:36 AM	#1
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,429	Hi Many thanks for the further input on this sword. I have read through all the posts again, however am a bit unclear as to the final conclusions. Is it possible to simply clarify the following points, although I understand this is not an exact science :- a) Is the sword "Spanish Colonial" ? b) What date range ? c) Could it be described as "blacksmith made" ? d) Was the blade made in the colonies or a trade import from Europe ? e) What about the hilt - was this made in the colonies or elsewhere ? I should point out that I would not describe the blade as of hexagonal section - it is shallow diamond - very shallow indeed, almost flat in places, also a bit irregular. I am attaching some close-ups of the blade, which may be of help. The sword certainly has a "home-made" and primitive look to it, which of course prompted me to acquire it. Much appreciated, its always good to learn new things - regards. Attached Images

22nd February 2013, 03:49 PM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Oops! Sorry about the mistake concerning the hilt materials. No, it doesn't change the outcome. Sometimes a picture isn't worth a thousand words. Nothing beats actually handling the 'beast'. Espada had hilts of both wood and horn and the pic made it appear yours could be the latter. I still wouldn't classify yours as a true espada ancha, but more of a Spanish colonial cutlass. The majority of the short-sword types typically had singe-edged curving blades with slat-wood/slat-horn grips (an important difference here from your rounded grip) that were sandwiched onto/riveted onto the tang. Your grip really does match the Amer colonial patterns of the period, thus my initial guess. Last edited by M ELEY; 22nd February 2013 at 10:13 PM.

22nd February 2013, 06:14 PM	#5
CutlassCollector Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Scotland Posts: 343	Corrosion Hi Colin, Being new here I hesitated to suggest this earlier but I have run it past Jim McDougall and he agrees that it may be worth considering. Your pictures show a lot of active corrosion and although WD40 and oil are good in most circumstances they work best on metal as opposed to oxides and it would be hard to exclude air and moisture completely over a long period so corrosion may continue. There are products readily available online in small quantities and in non toxic, safe to use at home preparations, that will remove rust and render it inert long enough to seal it. The de-corroder fluid will remove some corrosion depending on how long it is left on so does require a bit of care and experiment, but it leaves the corrosion inactive. The museum 'wax' dries clear and gives a sealed non greasy surface which can be removed if needed. Please be clear I am not in any way advocating shiny metal - just halting further corrosion. In brief what your aiming for is to remove or deactivate the red rust - that's yesterdays corrosion - without removing the black inert patina of history. You still end up with a rusty old sword but you have prevented further deterioration. I'll not mention brand names here but if you want further info pm me. Regards, CC

20th February 2013, 01:49 PM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	I think the final consensus is Spanish colonial. The blade and hilt both appear to be black-smith made. The horn grip consistent with espada ancha (and Brazilian cutlass, I might add), even the shape of the grip is typical, now that Jim pointed us in the right direction. Time period is a little sketchy, as Spanish colonial weapons, by definition, often followed earlier patterns. I would wager, being that it doesn't have multiple knuckle bows, nor the riveted bars to the hilt, that it's earlier. It mimics both colonial American, British and European cutlass patterns from the 1780-1810 era, so it's at most that old, perhaps up to the first quarter of the 19th century. I wouldn't put it past that, as that was after the independence of many of the Spanish territories and you start seeing swords resembling more of the contemporary forms of the day. Once again, I love the sword. It has great character, almost a 'folk art' quality to it. When you think about these pieces, even though they don't fetch the high prices that, say, a Spanish cup-hilt would attract, you have to remember that they are one-of-a-kind. Didn't mean to jump in, but just wanted to show my deep appreciation for this item!