semi-dual edged badik?

[DAHenkel]

This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.

[Moshah]

Hi Dave,

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

This is also a Peninsular piece which in Kelantan is usually called a "badik Bugis" ie. Bugis style, to distinguish it from the more typical Malay badik which have the mar.

Seeing one without pamor make me think it is a Malayan all right, but with limited knowledge I can't bring myself to jump into conclusion in the very beginning. Some more I failed to see (google..sic..) a Bugis badik without a pamor, which adds to the skepticism. But when the item reached my hand, I think the quality of the besi baja would justify the absence of pamor, and the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik). So then I believe it is all right a badik.

Then your input and Kai's make me believe now that it is a Kelantanese / N.Malayan. Good lord!

I've heard that Kelantanese refers to these kind as "bodek" or "pisau bugis"...and the one with the "mar" was a "badik". Since Kelantan and Pattani generally have their own keris and weaponology culture that is unique to itself, I think their badik is their badik and that's that. But definitely the similarities to the sewar's family was there, indeed.

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

I am afraid that I do not have the picture of the scabbard, as this badik was not mine....
However I know the owner and would be happy to tell you who is it, if you really want to know. He's quite a figure in the Kelantan keris scene...

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Also, the piece in post #3 now belongs to me. Such double edged blades are almost certainly a European influence adopted from Western military style blades.

OMG there's come the trouble Well, sorry but I have credited Artzi for it beforehand, because I don't know of the nice badik's whereabout already...

For a Peninsular piece, we hardly get to see any of the likes around so much. Not even here in Malaysia. Were the Kelantanese of the old days are more keen on the badiks with the "mar" type (i.e badik sepat etc) so that they did not make much of badiks with the design like yours and mine?

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by Moshah

...(when) the fuller started one inch after the base of the hilt, not right through (which would indicate a pedang reborned in its second life as a badik).

This is what I meant. The first box from left indicates the fuller starts, and the second box was the start of the partial edge, and the fuller still continues till half an inch before the tip.

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

BTW the piece pictured in post #5 is a typical Kelantan style badik and looks like a nice one. Good ones are hard to find. If you have the scabbard I'd love to see it.

..anyway the scabbard for that badik would look like this example, as I recollected. Is this a typical Kelantanese badik sheath?

I guess the badik here is Kelantanese as well, with a mysterious kuningan that looks like a mixture of swassa in the pamor. But I though swassa or any other alloy couldn't mix up with the besi baja, so I really don't know what it is...

[T. Koch]

That's some great looking horn on that last one Moshah, especially the color of the hilt.


Cheers, - Thor

[Moshah]

Thanks, Thor...but I believe it ain't a horn.

It is a sea ivory. See the dotted line on the pix below. Over here in Malaysia, I think it is not a common material for badik hilt. That's an observation, based on what I've seen, but still I haven't see a lot of things...

And it's aged well...ah, the sin of the heart...

[Sajen]

Beautiful badik! And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

[T. Koch]

Interesting. When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to? I am not familiar with any marine ivory both displaying lamellar growth like that, and at the same time showing cracks along the axis shown above. Then again, there's probably a lot of sea mammals whose teeth I haven't seen myself - especially tropical ones.

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do.

Sweet looking badik regardless!


All the best, - Thor

[Sajen]

Hello Thor, you know what I would say!?

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by T. Koch

When you say 'sea ivory' which species are you exactly referring to?

The real problem over here is that people are referring to sea ivory as "gigi" (i.e tooth), hence the better understanding and futher classification of sea ivory was somewhat fall short, because of the generalization of terming that has become a common practice around...

Originally Posted by T. Koch

I know that 'dots in a row' in ivory, is sometimes associated with hippo tusks and their inner interstitial zone (TIZ), but the TIZ wouldn't take the direction shown in a cross section like the one above, unless your badik is very small. How long is the hilt btw?

The "dots in a row" was my ultimate indicator of a sea ivory, but again I am not so sure on rhino or hippo horns. The hilt was not big, about 5.8cm long...

Originally Posted by T. Koch

From the picture above, I would still bet on blonde horn - unless you are sure that it is definitely tooth. In that case, it would be interesting to see a macro straight on the very end, as well as one perpendicular to the length of the hilt.

Blonde horn? You mean, hippo?
Attached were a series of pictures, where I believe would assist you in the further effort of it's ID. In the first pix I've highlighted the dots on the bottom and on the surface of the hilt, for easier identification.

Originally Posted by T. Koch

Sorry for the long ramble - nerding ivory is kindof what I do.

Don't be, Thor, as what you do is something that I would like to do as well!

[Moshah]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Beautiful badik! And I can only repeat what I have written in your other thread.

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks, Detlef.

Perhaps I would own as good & as much as yours, one day...

[T. Koch]

Damn, that's some strange stuff.... With the last photo, I must admit, that I am not able to ID it as being anything other than hippopotamus ivory. Maybe we are indeed looking at the very core of the tusk in cross section, when viewing your hilt from the pommel end. The layers and angle of the line of spots certainly fits...
That would mean that the hollow canal along the tusk core has been completely crushed by the dentine and now totally reduced to these little pin-prick impurities (spots in a row) we see. That's something I've never seen before, but then again freak incidents happen all the time in nature. -perhaps it happens once a hippo grows old enough, as the dentine layers keep packing on...?

Would be interesting to see a series of tusk cross sections lined up according to the age of the source animal.


Mosha, don't worry about what people call it. I deal with it on a regular basis too. Common people rarely know the exact scientific names of what they have. Unfortunately popular names are the scourge of useful investigation.

In regards to your question. Horn is for instance what cattle, antilopes and rhinoceros grow. They are composed of keratin - the same materials that make up hair, claws and nails.

Teeth are made up of dentine and enamel. The males (in most cases) of certain species of animals grow a particular set of large teeth made for combat - actual or ritual/demonstration - to determine their position in the group and predator deterrence (same thing as the above animals use their horn for). For example Elephant, narwhal and hippo. These particular teeth we call tusks.


Getting back to your badik. Do you know if the hilt has attained this color by handling over time (patina) or has it been dyed in tea or another substance? Tea dying of ivory is something I would really like to learn more about. I myself, am a sucker for the warmer, more amber colors of ivory. - your's above is delicious!

Thanks for the extra pics, they were very illuminating!


All the best, - Thor