What is the meaning behind this gandik type?

Bjorn · 11th February 2013, 07:46 PM

Aland and Amuk,

This is turning into quite an interesting discussion and I'd like to thank you both for your views. It's certainly quite educational for me and I wish that my own knowledge was greater so that I could make a more substantial contribution to this discussion.

David · 26th February 2013, 05:58 PM

The owner of the image that Bjorn started this thread with asked that it be removed and Bjorn was in agreement, so i deleted it. If anyone has access to a similar one for a reference point it might be helpful to the discussion.

Jussi M. · 27th February 2013, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As keris become more recent we find meditating figures(puthut), buffalo, tigers, lions, manglar monggo, garudas, in fact a whole menagerie of motifs. A nice foundation for a collection could perhaps be to collect only keris with figural motifs --- what we call "picture keris".

- emphasis added -

Greetings,

this idea of concentrating ones collection focus onto "picture keris´s" only sounds good in that it would make easier to stay the course: "no picture, on the keris, I´ll pass". Thus temptations would be easier to evade as the mass to choose from would be considerably lower?

However would this be a riskier approach for the novice keris student in that there would be a higher risk of landing with a fraud than if one were to focus on the "less pictoral", more "regular", keris, pun intended? I´m talking about post original manufacture alterations provided for making the market value higher. Hallucination?

Thanks,

J.

A. G. Maisey · 1st March 2013, 11:04 PM

Yes Jussi, what you’ve said is certainly true:- if one were to focus only on picture keris, it is possible that one could buy some comparatively expensive keris that were not what they pretended to be. However, unfortunately this is true of virtually all attractive older keris.

The talented craftsmen of jawa have been busy for over 100 years in altering unattractive older blades and turning them into much more attractive blades. One of the most popular alterations is to make a hujan mas pamor out of a wos wutah pamor; same for bendo sagodo; in fact same for any surface manipulated pamor, but hujan mas is probably the most popular because it is a very popular pamor.

Tuban blades were often very big, heavy blades, but these days it is extremely rare to find come across one of these old “super size” Tuban blades, and they have become extremely valuable because of their rareity.

What happened to all the others? Used up over the last 100-150 years by turning them into picture keris, waved keris, keris with fancy surface manipulated pamor.

So the fact of the matter is that anybody who has a focus on old keris, simply because they are old, has an extremely high possibility of buying something that has been fiddled with --- and it is not at all easy to always pick these changelings, even with much experience. I’ve been tricked more than a few times, as have some very highly respected keris experts whom I know and have known.

Actually some of the picture keris alterations are worth keeping as masterpieces. I doubt that there has been anybody during the last 40 years or so who has been able to do this sort of alteration convincingly.

So its not just novice collectors who are at risk Jussi, its all of us are. I guess that is one of the major reasons for the high popularity of kemardikan keris, and sky high prices of non-noman keris. At least with these types of keris you can be pretty certain of exactly what you are getting, and quality is normally high.

Focus on older keris and it is absolutely certain that no matter how experienced one is, a percentage of one’s acquisitions will be changelings, no matter if one focuses on older keris in general, or only older picture keris. But my suggestion was for picture keris, and probably the biggest percentage of picture keris in the market place are kemardikan.

drdavid · 2nd March 2013, 11:02 PM

Quote:

They were using the harbour at Kuta in those days as the point of entry to South Bali, and the rhino was brought to Kuta and then gifted to the Raja in 1839. This was not an early effort to save the rhino, because a few years later in 1841 or 1842 the rhino was sacrificed as a part of a cremation ceremony.That's as much as I can remember, but somebody may be able to find more on this, and there might be some connection with the use of a rhino as keris motif.

In 'Visible and Invisible Realms' by Wiener the rhinocerous makes a few appearances but all are related to the gifting of a rhinocerous for the reasons Alan mentions. According to Wiener the dutchman involved was Schuurman and the rhino was given to the ruler/s of Klungkung (at that stage Dewa Agung Putra II and his sister Dewa Agung Isteri Kania were joint rulers). The rhino was sacrificed at a great maligia (purification) ceremony for the establishment of the temple complex at Sengguan.
drd

Bjorn · 4th March 2013, 05:30 PM

I went through some Dutch sources on Schuurman and the gifting of the rhinoceros to Dewa Agung, at the dewa's request.

But why did Dewa Agung want a rhinoceros? Why not some other animal? None of the sources mentioned anything about what a rhino might have meant to the Balinese of that era. Some did suggest that Dewa Agung specifically requested the rhino for the purpose of it being used in an important religious ceremony - but again, why did he want a rhino specifically?

The only link I've been able to find between Hinduism and a rhinoceros is that it is one of the mounts of Agni (God of fire). There is a relief in Angkor Wat showing Agni in a chariot that is pulled by a rhinoceros (http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/s...iefs/br20.html). Of course, Bali has its own flavour of Hinduism and the above may thus be completely irrelevant; and the use of a rhino as a god's mount may be unique to Cambodia. But perhaps it is possible - that as the rhinoceros was used in a cremation ceremony - that there is a link between fire (cremation), Agni and the rhinoceros?

And even if this is the case, I still don't see how the symbolism behind the rhino and lion on the gandik of a keris.

A. G. Maisey · 5th March 2013, 02:33 AM

Yuuzan, I'm a bit handicapped with net access at the moment because I've exceeded my monthly allowance, so I don't want to use this link you've provided, however, Agni + rhino is from memory a Khymer association that does not occur in Bali-Hindu, nor in mainline Hindu belief. Again from memory, I think Agni normally uses a ram as a mount. My apologies if I'm wrong.

11th February 2013, 07:46 PM	#1
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	Aland and Amuk, This is turning into quite an interesting discussion and I'd like to thank you both for your views. It's certainly quite educational for me and I wish that my own knowledge was greater so that I could make a more substantial contribution to this discussion.

26th February 2013, 05:58 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	The owner of the image that Bjorn started this thread with asked that it be removed and Bjorn was in agreement, so i deleted it. If anyone has access to a similar one for a reference point it might be helpful to the discussion.

1st March 2013, 11:04 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yes Jussi, what you’ve said is certainly true:- if one were to focus only on picture keris, it is possible that one could buy some comparatively expensive keris that were not what they pretended to be. However, unfortunately this is true of virtually all attractive older keris. The talented craftsmen of jawa have been busy for over 100 years in altering unattractive older blades and turning them into much more attractive blades. One of the most popular alterations is to make a hujan mas pamor out of a wos wutah pamor; same for bendo sagodo; in fact same for any surface manipulated pamor, but hujan mas is probably the most popular because it is a very popular pamor. Tuban blades were often very big, heavy blades, but these days it is extremely rare to find come across one of these old “super size” Tuban blades, and they have become extremely valuable because of their rareity. What happened to all the others? Used up over the last 100-150 years by turning them into picture keris, waved keris, keris with fancy surface manipulated pamor. So the fact of the matter is that anybody who has a focus on old keris, simply because they are old, has an extremely high possibility of buying something that has been fiddled with --- and it is not at all easy to always pick these changelings, even with much experience. I’ve been tricked more than a few times, as have some very highly respected keris experts whom I know and have known. Actually some of the picture keris alterations are worth keeping as masterpieces. I doubt that there has been anybody during the last 40 years or so who has been able to do this sort of alteration convincingly. So its not just novice collectors who are at risk Jussi, its all of us are. I guess that is one of the major reasons for the high popularity of kemardikan keris, and sky high prices of non-noman keris. At least with these types of keris you can be pretty certain of exactly what you are getting, and quality is normally high. Focus on older keris and it is absolutely certain that no matter how experienced one is, a percentage of one’s acquisitions will be changelings, no matter if one focuses on older keris in general, or only older picture keris. But my suggestion was for picture keris, and probably the biggest percentage of picture keris in the market place are kemardikan.

4th March 2013, 05:30 PM	#6
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	I went through some Dutch sources on Schuurman and the gifting of the rhinoceros to Dewa Agung, at the dewa's request. But why did Dewa Agung want a rhinoceros? Why not some other animal? None of the sources mentioned anything about what a rhino might have meant to the Balinese of that era. Some did suggest that Dewa Agung specifically requested the rhino for the purpose of it being used in an important religious ceremony - but again, why did he want a rhino specifically? The only link I've been able to find between Hinduism and a rhinoceros is that it is one of the mounts of Agni (God of fire). There is a relief in Angkor Wat showing Agni in a chariot that is pulled by a rhinoceros (http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/s...iefs/br20.html). Of course, Bali has its own flavour of Hinduism and the above may thus be completely irrelevant; and the use of a rhino as a god's mount may be unique to Cambodia. But perhaps it is possible - that as the rhinoceros was used in a cremation ceremony - that there is a link between fire (cremation), Agni and the rhinoceros? And even if this is the case, I still don't see how the symbolism behind the rhino and lion on the gandik of a keris.

5th March 2013, 02:33 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Yuuzan, I'm a bit handicapped with net access at the moment because I've exceeded my monthly allowance, so I don't want to use this link you've provided, however, Agni + rhino is from memory a Khymer association that does not occur in Bali-Hindu, nor in mainline Hindu belief. Again from memory, I think Agni normally uses a ram as a mount. My apologies if I'm wrong.