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Old 19th December 2012, 07:02 PM   #31
asomotif
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VVV
Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael


Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=magic+squares
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Old 19th December 2012, 07:19 PM   #32
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Hello Willem,

Quote:
So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region.

IMHO it's the rattan knots which heavily sway things towards Borneo; and the Banjar/Negara area sure looks like a nice fit to me.

Quote:
sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war

Most surviving examples may well be from that war but as Maurice indicated, these were, of course, also widely used in the other conflicts throughout the archipelago, including subduing the Banjar sultanate. BTW, has anyone studied colonial blunderbusses in detail?

Regards,
Kai
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Old 19th December 2012, 07:29 PM   #33
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Willem,

Thanks for highlighting another clue to this riddle.

Michael
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Old 19th December 2012, 07:36 PM   #34
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Hello Willem,

Sorry, posts crossed.

Quote:
A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel

Yeah, I was thinking of Erik's neat blade, too.

Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area.

Regards,
Kai
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Old 19th December 2012, 07:38 PM   #35
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I am heavily leaning towards a Malay/Borneo/Banjar/Negara origin.

Problem is, now I want one too
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Old 19th December 2012, 09:29 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Hello Michael,

Yes, you are right, I was just typing before thinking.

A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=magic+squares


Dear Willem

You was right to focus on the barrel’s decoration ,I was more taking care only about those inscriptions in the wood.
So many thank for your good opinion and this discovery about my blunderbuss.
Kind regards

Jean-Luc
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Old 19th December 2012, 09:35 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
Hello Willem,

Sorry, posts crossed.


Yeah, I was thinking of Erik's neat blade, too.

Just as a sidenote for Cerjak, real wafaq are also a fairly common feature on upper-end Beladah Belabang (misnamed Parang Nabur). So, other talismanic invocations would certainly be no surprise from this area.

Regards,
Kai

Dear Kai

Thank you for your explanation some time it is hard for me to follow this dicussion but I have to say that I 'm learning a lot about Ethnographic weapon in this forum
Kind regards

Cerjak
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Old 19th December 2012, 10:08 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai
I can't remember having seen similar notches before though. Any similar examples (from firearms or other implements) throughout Asia?

Regards,
Kai


I checked a few examples on the website of the dutch army museum in Delft.
Several of them are attributed to be "asian", most of them are said to have Tower locks, some have notches. a few are rebuilt to percussion.
Not realy a study here, but nice for comparisson.
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Old 27th December 2012, 11:07 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Thank you Mohd for your kind help.
... snip ...
I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference

from the "gift" of .. Mohd

You requested the translation of both documents
- The first, the text is too secret, to expect a translation

- The second is an array, whose writing used is an old Arabic language from Middle East,
with more information to insiders, that we are not
- Syriac names are unknown
- The names of the Earth, also
- Values ​​talismanic, ditto

- The Arabic names are strange
- The names of angels, are readable, although one or two are obscure
- The names of incense, are also interesting, although almost unknown to us

all that to say, we do not expect long explanations, that we would be bored to give you
all this is a culture talismanic that we did not had

every line have been translated, excepted for the "cabalistics signs",
you have matter for reflexions and suppositions

now the headache it's ... with you

all the best

à +

Dom
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Old 5th January 2013, 11:12 PM   #40
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Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.
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Old 6th January 2013, 11:27 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Here a picture of a display at the dutch army museum showing a nice blunderbuss with dragon mouth barrel.

Fantastic example, so nice !
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Old 6th January 2013, 04:10 PM   #42
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Good research Willem!

I've seen one for sale a while ago, and it was listed as blunderbuss from Aceh!
It had no ratan, but the same inlay on the barrel as this one!

If I knew what I know now thanks to you, I would have taken it at that time...
:-(
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Old 6th January 2013, 07:35 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kai

Most surviving examples may well be from that war but as Maurice indicated, these were, of course, also widely used in the other conflicts throughout the archipelago, including subduing the Banjar sultanate. BTW, has anyone studied colonial blunderbusses in detail?


I think it's not easy to study colonial blunderbusses. As there was a lot of import/export!
But I know these blunderbusses were manufactured in Banjarmasin and Negara. I don't know how about other regions or indonesian islands, as I digged only this deep in Borneo matters.... (maybe other collectors of other specific area's can highlight something about the use/manufacturing of blunderbusses in other area's).

The text described below I have translated from J.C.J. Smits, "Gedenkboek Bronbeek".
This text will explain why (in my eyes) it's impossible to have a good study on these colonial blunderbusses as they all look the same or have similarities as others, which were trophees taken in other regions:..........................


In times when dr. Salomon Muller visited the former Banjarmasin state (in 1836), an amount of 100 Banjarese solely were concerned with the manufacturing of distinct weapon types.
"They make rifles", he said, "pistols-, soldiers- and shotguns, damascened sabers, swords and kerisses, in one word, all types of hand weapons."
These swords were partly made of indegenous steel, and partly of European steel.
The firearms that the Banjarese used in the war of 1859-1863, consisted of "lila's" (bigger and smaller blunderbusses) and guns of different shapes, mostly pan- but also percussion rifles.
MANY OF THE WEAPONS MADE IN NEGARA WERE EXPORTED. THIS PROBABLY EXPLAINES WHY THE RIFLES CONQUERED ON SUMATRAN EASTCOAST IN 1872 HAVE THESE HUGE SIMILARITY OF THOSE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS.

ALSO THE WEAPONS CONQUERED ON NIAS ARE AS GOOD AS THE SAME AS THE ONE CONQUERED FROM THE DAJAKS.



Any other views on this subject are mostly welcome!
Rg
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Old 6th January 2013, 08:00 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
A small check on the forum brought me to a weapon that is for sure malay/borneo and than I noticed the inlay decoration with the swastika like symbol. exactly the motif on the barrel
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...t=magic+squares


To make it a bit more complexer :-)

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).
On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items...

But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395:
These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."

Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs."
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Old 7th January 2013, 07:20 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).


"Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."[/B]



Here two images I scanned from the book on page 395, which come the closest to the motifs on the blunderbuss barrel and Erik's sword.
For those who don't have the book....
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Old 27th January 2013, 06:59 PM   #46
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Default Exactly Similar ornement found in a other blunderbuss

I Had the suprise today to see the same ornement on one second blunderbuss who seems to be the same model but still with his fintlock.

So should be from the same local gunmaker ..
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Old 7th February 2013, 05:32 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
I checked a few examples on the website of the dutch army museum in Delft.
Several of them are attributed to be "asian", most of them are said to have Tower locks, some have notches. a few are rebuilt to percussion.
Not realy a study here, but nice for comparisson.


Hi
I had the luck last week to find a similar model to this 012655 and again with the same design on the barrel I will post more pictures to show it.
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Old 7th February 2013, 05:38 PM   #48
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Old 8th February 2013, 07:22 AM   #49
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Old 8th February 2013, 07:36 AM   #50
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Old 8th February 2013, 07:46 AM   #51
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Old 3rd May 2013, 02:12 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
To make it a bit more complexer :-)

In the book "Indonesian Ornamental Design", you can find similar swastika symbols and line ornaments (just as on the barrel and on Erik's Banjarmasin sword).
On page 325, the most upper image, on Javanese copper items...

But looking further in the same book I think we got the answer of these motifs on page 395:
These motifs are described here as: "Variations on the banji (key-and-hook or swastika) design. The occurence of this design is an example of Chinese influence in Indonesian ornamental design."

Also on page 396 we find "examples of various Chinese Japanese, Indian and Indonesian key-and-hook designs."


When reading a bit in one of the juynbollen, i came across a balinese knife with these bandji-ornaments. According Juynboll, who calls this motif also "bandji", these bandji's exist out of more swastika's motifs. Sometimes so abstractly that we even can't see the clear swastika anymore.
Ps. Balinese knife can be viewed at the Leiden database, nr. 466/2


Maurice
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Old 3rd May 2013, 02:14 PM   #53
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Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!

Maurice
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Old 4th May 2013, 07:20 AM   #54
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other blunderbuss, lock stamp 1814 with a lion
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Old 4th May 2013, 10:18 AM   #55
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Max

Yes similar motifs on the barrel.
Thank you for those photos.
Any marks on the wood ?
Regards
Cerjak
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Old 4th May 2013, 01:48 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
Max

Yes similar motifs on the barrel.
Thank you for those photos.
Any marks on the wood ?
Regards
Cerjak


Hello Cerjak,
No there are no marks on the wood. I always though it was a atjeh blunderbuss. It was said to me by the former owner. Your thread weathen my prespective, also in historical view. I have read the discusion with much interrest. Thanks.
Kindly regards
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Old 4th May 2013, 04:09 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maurice
Conclusion! We can't label these bandji ornaments at a certain area. They show up all over the indonesian archipellago!

Maurice

I have to agree with this conclusion, you will not place exact origin on any of these weapons based upon the bandji patterns on the gun barrels. This is a standard design throughout Indonesia seen in textiles and architectural features. The word "bandja" is taken from the Hokkiên dialect of Chinese and literally means swastika. It has Hindu/Buddhist significance, though this does not necessarily mean that the owners of these weapons were Hindu or Buddhist. The peoples of Indonesia have always been inclusionary people and have adopted both Hindu and Islamic symbolism in a syncretic manner along with the original animistic traditions that existed before these influences entered the archipelago.
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons.
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Old 4th May 2013, 04:27 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I have to agree with this conclusion, you will not place exact origin on any of these weapons based upon the bandji patterns on the gun barrels. This is a standard design throughout Indonesia seen in textiles and architectural features. The word "bandja" is taken from the Hokkiên dialect of Chinese and literally means swastika. It has Hindu/Buddhist significance, though this does not necessarily mean that the owners of these weapons were Hindu or Buddhist. The peoples of Indonesia have always been inclusionary people and have adopted both Hindu and Islamic symbolism in a syncretic manner along with the original animistic traditions that existed before these influences entered the archipelago.
I think Michael was on to something in regards to origin early on noting the circular rattan wrap on the OP's gun that i have only seen on Dayak weapons.


Thank you for the explanation of the word "Bandja" David! That explains a lot!
I agree the "katon evok's" (woven ratan knots) point out of the Borneo direction.
But on most of the blunderbusses you don't find these kind of knots, even if they are from Borneo. And than it will be a lot more difficult to nail down the origine.
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Old 4th May 2013, 04:46 PM   #59
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Here two blunderbusses, from the Bronbeek museum collection and now on display because of the 150 years jubilee.

Both taken right out of the Aceh war.
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Old 14th December 2013, 09:30 AM   #60
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Default Aceh Warrior

Two pictures with similar Blunserbuss.
May be someone have better pictures ?
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