Pamor thread?

David · 6th February 2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

Ric, i don't think that you will want to get caught in the "name game" here and it will only distract you from what it seems you goals are. As Alan has already pointed out, there are a lot of good examples of pamor pattern in many available books. You will likely not only find the same name used for "similar" patterns that seem to have an obviously different approach, but completely different names for the same "exact" patterns, dependent upon many variables including, but not exclusive to the area the blade originates from, when the blade was made and what reference materials the person applying the name has read for their source info.
I am not sure what good it would serve to amass a colection of various pamors here except to create endless debate on what these various pamors should be called. You can certainly find a fairly large selection of clear photographs of different patterns either in some of these reference books or with a google search of images under the key word "keris pamor patterns".

Richard Furrer · 6th February 2013, 06:35 PM

Indeed Gentleman,
Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general.
Yet,
Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have.

As to names:
I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful.

Ric

A. G. Maisey · 6th February 2013, 09:52 PM

Richard, you've noted in this most recent post that some of the pamor patterns "posted here" --- which I take as posted to this Forum --- are new patterns that do not appear in the books you have.

Yes, you're right.

We see a fair few pamor patterns posted mostly by people looking for a name, or to confirm a name. I can think of two that have surfaced in the last couple of weeks:- kembang pete (this is pronounced in a similar way to "pehteh", not as the abbreviation of "Peter") and klabang sejuta.

The kp is a variation of bendo sagodo, or brongsong, or santa, and 40 years ago all of them would probably have been dumped into the same basket and the variations from bendo sagodo would have been regarded as attempts that didn't quite make it. Or, alternatively the kp might have been regarded as banyu tetes on steroids.

The ks is interesting. I first saw this pamor in probably about 1988. It was the first time I'd seen it, the first time the dealer I bought from had seen it, and the first time Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo had seen it. It was a new creation out of Sumenep. For a number of years it was called "tirto tejo". Now it looks like the power of public opinion, or maybe marketing has decided that its klabang sejuta.

Now, this name is interesting, and it tells us that we are in fact looking at a new pamor that has been very probably given its name by the people in Jakarta, rather than people in the Javanese heartland. If this was an old Javanese pamor and they wanted to call it "thousand centipede" it would be "klabang sewu".

Sewu = one thousand in Javanese, sejuta = post 1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian, seyuta = pre-1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian. The transposition of "o" for "a" in some words is a Javanese characteristic of colloquial speech, so if "sewu sejuta" were to be spoken by a Javanese person in relaxed conversation, it would very probably be pronounced "sewuseyuto". The inclusion of an "e" after the "k" (kelabang) is the written expression of the pronunciation, which could probably be better represented by an apostrophe rather than an 'e', but it is not the usually accepted formal spelling.

But why didn't the originators of this name use Indonesian for "centipede"? "klabang " is Javanese

Well, if they had the name would be "lipan berbisa sejuta".

Sorta doesn't flow real well, does it?

And klabang has probably come over into Indonesian fairly widely, its certainly understood, anyway, and sounds better than "lipan berbisa"

All of the original keris terminology is Javanese.

Why?

Because the keris is first and foremost a Javanese cultural artifact.

Bahasa Indonesia, or Indonesian, is based upon Malay as it is spoken in a part of South Sumatera. Indonesian is the national language of the country, Indonesia, it is not the language of the Javanese people.

So when we see keris terminology rendered in Indonesian it is a dead give away that what we're looking at is a newly manufactured name, and probably a newly manufactured artifact as well.

Before somebody jumps onto the bandwagon and points out that everywhere the keris appears there are names that vary from the Javanese let us consider the spread of the keris.

This spread of the keris probably began with Majapahit trade links, but at that time in history the keris within Majapahit had a very specific social function, a function that would have precluded many forms of keris from being legitimately worn by people who were outside the Majapahit social structure. Some would very probably have been given to local rulers in parts of SE Asia that were under Majapahit influence, but there would have been no keris presence in the general populace in these places outside Majapahit.

With Islam a couple of things happened:- Javanese metal working skills went through a quantum leap (Pigeaud), and trade expanded. This was when the keris dispersion really took off, and by the late 17th century keris had actually become trade goods. The original purpose of the keris in Jawa had disappeared with the disappearance of Majapahit.

Thus, when the keris found its way into other parts of SE Asia it was adopted as a local artifact and given its own name and terminology by the local people in these other places.

In fact, keris terminology is full of euphemisms. Nowhere does a keris term tell you what the thing it refers to truly is.

So, fast forward to the keris revival of the 1970's and the second coming of the keris industry in Sumenep --- second coming, because these people have been making keris for the rest of Jawa since Majapahit times. We have a number of very talented pattern welders who are now taking traditional pamor motifs and extending the possibilities of those traditional motifs. It's understandable that we are seeing some seemingly different pamor motifs, but when we closely examine those motifs we can always relate them to a traditional motif, or to a combination of traditional motifs.

As David has noted, the name game is a pointless exercise. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm foundation to keris terminology. One can devote years to learning all the little quirks of keris terminology that apply in one particular location, then move 40 kilometers down the road and find that perhaps half of his hard won knowledge is not really of much use in his new location. One thing we should never get too upset about is the fact that not everybody will always agree as to name of some pamor, dhapur or whatever.

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

David · 7th February 2013, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

Well, i am not opposed to such a thread outright. Bring it on if the membership is so inclined. My suggestion would be close, detailed photographs that clearly show the pattern and lead to a better understanding of the construction of the pamor pattern. Sharpness and clarity of the images will be very important if the images are to be truly useful. Endless debate about the "correct" name of posted pamors will not. Let the uploading begin...

A. G. Maisey · 7th February 2013, 03:07 AM

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

Richard Furrer · 7th February 2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David.

I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

I suggest an underneath view of the Ganja as well...it often has the cross-section of the original block from which the keris was forged...very telling as to construction of the blade.....and sometimes not related at all.

I'll go through my tiny grouping of keris and see if I have anything worth posting. As I have a new display stand (thank you Alan) I have reason to get them all in one place now.

Ric

sirek · 7th February 2013, 06:08 PM

If I may suggest, it might also be useful and easier to use if everyone uses the same size pictures, about: 500 x 800 pixels (fits in one screen image)

6th February 2013, 06:35 PM	#2
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Indeed Gentleman, Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general. Yet, Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have. As to names: I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful. Ric

6th February 2013, 09:52 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Richard, you've noted in this most recent post that some of the pamor patterns "posted here" --- which I take as posted to this Forum --- are new patterns that do not appear in the books you have. Yes, you're right. We see a fair few pamor patterns posted mostly by people looking for a name, or to confirm a name. I can think of two that have surfaced in the last couple of weeks:- kembang pete (this is pronounced in a similar way to "pehteh", not as the abbreviation of "Peter") and klabang sejuta. The kp is a variation of bendo sagodo, or brongsong, or santa, and 40 years ago all of them would probably have been dumped into the same basket and the variations from bendo sagodo would have been regarded as attempts that didn't quite make it. Or, alternatively the kp might have been regarded as banyu tetes on steroids. The ks is interesting. I first saw this pamor in probably about 1988. It was the first time I'd seen it, the first time the dealer I bought from had seen it, and the first time Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo had seen it. It was a new creation out of Sumenep. For a number of years it was called "tirto tejo". Now it looks like the power of public opinion, or maybe marketing has decided that its klabang sejuta. Now, this name is interesting, and it tells us that we are in fact looking at a new pamor that has been very probably given its name by the people in Jakarta, rather than people in the Javanese heartland. If this was an old Javanese pamor and they wanted to call it "thousand centipede" it would be "klabang sewu". Sewu = one thousand in Javanese, sejuta = post 1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian, seyuta = pre-1972 spelling for one thousand in Indonesian. The transposition of "o" for "a" in some words is a Javanese characteristic of colloquial speech, so if "sewu sejuta" were to be spoken by a Javanese person in relaxed conversation, it would very probably be pronounced "sewuseyuto". The inclusion of an "e" after the "k" (kelabang) is the written expression of the pronunciation, which could probably be better represented by an apostrophe rather than an 'e', but it is not the usually accepted formal spelling. But why didn't the originators of this name use Indonesian for "centipede"? "klabang " is Javanese Well, if they had the name would be "lipan berbisa sejuta". Sorta doesn't flow real well, does it? And klabang has probably come over into Indonesian fairly widely, its certainly understood, anyway, and sounds better than "lipan berbisa" All of the original keris terminology is Javanese. Why? Because the keris is first and foremost a Javanese cultural artifact. Bahasa Indonesia, or Indonesian, is based upon Malay as it is spoken in a part of South Sumatera. Indonesian is the national language of the country, Indonesia, it is not the language of the Javanese people. So when we see keris terminology rendered in Indonesian it is a dead give away that what we're looking at is a newly manufactured name, and probably a newly manufactured artifact as well. Before somebody jumps onto the bandwagon and points out that everywhere the keris appears there are names that vary from the Javanese let us consider the spread of the keris. This spread of the keris probably began with Majapahit trade links, but at that time in history the keris within Majapahit had a very specific social function, a function that would have precluded many forms of keris from being legitimately worn by people who were outside the Majapahit social structure. Some would very probably have been given to local rulers in parts of SE Asia that were under Majapahit influence, but there would have been no keris presence in the general populace in these places outside Majapahit. With Islam a couple of things happened:- Javanese metal working skills went through a quantum leap (Pigeaud), and trade expanded. This was when the keris dispersion really took off, and by the late 17th century keris had actually become trade goods. The original purpose of the keris in Jawa had disappeared with the disappearance of Majapahit. Thus, when the keris found its way into other parts of SE Asia it was adopted as a local artifact and given its own name and terminology by the local people in these other places. In fact, keris terminology is full of euphemisms. Nowhere does a keris term tell you what the thing it refers to truly is. So, fast forward to the keris revival of the 1970's and the second coming of the keris industry in Sumenep --- second coming, because these people have been making keris for the rest of Jawa since Majapahit times. We have a number of very talented pattern welders who are now taking traditional pamor motifs and extending the possibilities of those traditional motifs. It's understandable that we are seeing some seemingly different pamor motifs, but when we closely examine those motifs we can always relate them to a traditional motif, or to a combination of traditional motifs. As David has noted, the name game is a pointless exercise. The simple fact of the matter is that there is no firm foundation to keris terminology. One can devote years to learning all the little quirks of keris terminology that apply in one particular location, then move 40 kilometers down the road and find that perhaps half of his hard won knowledge is not really of much use in his new location. One thing we should never get too upset about is the fact that not everybody will always agree as to name of some pamor, dhapur or whatever. I don't necessarily agree with David about the usefulness of a pamor reference thread. If we look at past posts we do find a very large number of queries on pamor. If all these past queries had been able to be directed into a single thread it might make it a lot easier for the classifiers amongst us to apply names.

7th February 2013, 03:07 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yeah, I reckon that's the way to go David. I feel that one complete blade shot, and at least one close-up should be the minimum requirement.

7th February 2013, 06:08 PM	#7
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 170	If I may suggest, it might also be useful and easier to use if everyone uses the same size pictures, about: 500 x 800 pixels (fits in one screen image)