Rapier or smallsword PIERCED blade for comment

M ELEY · 6th February 2013, 01:28 AM

Oops, I see now where you listed the length of approx 23". Perhaps too long for a dirk, but would still like to see the hilt.

Valjhun · 6th February 2013, 11:10 AM

OK, here is it. Just a piece of wood rivetted. Awkward and modern.

Too short for a sword too long for a dagger.

Thank you for your replies. Fernando wonderfull, I never saw a plug bayonet with such a blade wich is very similar to mine.

Valjhun · 6th February 2013, 11:48 AM

Without the wooden hilt.

Well, I hoped that the blade contiued into the hilt... obviously not.. is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou.

Atlantia · 6th February 2013, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

Without the wooden hilt.

Well, I hoped that the blade contiued into the hilt... obviously not.. is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou.

Hi Valjhun

My best guess would be that this blade started out life in a configuration more akin to the one's I've shown above and in the link I sent you.
I suspect that it has been shortened from the hilt end (as well as having lost a little from the tip).
If you take the proportions of the childs small sword that I have with this type of blade then the overall length is 65cm (with possibly a tiny loss from the tip) with the single pierced 'in and out' fuller starting 10.5cm from the hilt and ending 23.5cm down the blade (from the hilt).
The full sized one has a blade length of just over 76cm long with similar relative proportions for the fuller and area above.

So, if you assume that your blade was once 76cm long and of the same configuration as the one I propose, then there would be around 12cm of blade from where the fuller started and the original hilt.
Looking at the top of the blade on yours I can't see any evidence of shoulders or widening, which would also lend credence to the theory that it's been modified at that end.
So if we deduct 12cm from 76cm we come up with 64cm, the tip looks like it's been recut so that could well account for the other 4.5cm 'missing' which gives us the remaining 59.5cm that you have now.

The tang as it is now looks like it might have had metal added in (as you rightly pointed out).
You could clean it up and there might be more 'evidence' to be seen. There looks to be signs of working on the upper part of the blade and the tang as it is now certainly doesn't look like it was originally made that way.

I would suggest that this current configuration lacks the 'finesse' of a sword made for fighting and simply doesn't fit into any of the scenarios that I can imagine. Frankly I also imagine that the balance would be somewhat 'lacking' with the wooden hilt and huge cruciform guard.

However there is perhaps another possibility.

The size makes me think childs sword. The shape makes me think of a crude version of a bowless Matadors sword.
I imagine that ghastly as it is, some children aspire to be bullfighters. Why not a 'first real' sword for a poor aspiring Matador?
Of course any theory on it's 'second life' is just guesswork pure and simple.

Here's a close-up of the upper section of the childs smallsword for you to examine.

Best
Gene

Valjhun · 7th February 2013, 01:21 AM

Thank you, friends for your help.

I ruined the wooden hilt during the process and it is constructed from spruce wood and not older than 20 years as it is very very clear and fresh looking. (it looks older in the pics as it is darkly laquered). Someone found this broken sword blade and has put it toghether to his best knowledge and tried to sell it as a complete piece, I guess.

I agree that the grotesque guard is also modern and it seems machine made, and poorly made, so I will remove it also I think.

The question is what should I do with it? It is a nice blade overall and I think to rehilt it in some manner so I can put it in my collection. I really like the blade and composite would be better that nothing I guess.

Any thoughts of where I can find some period dagger hilt with pommel or so?

Atlantia · 10th February 2013, 09:19 AM

How wide is the blade at the hilt now? Perhaps it's narrow enough to be a swordstick?

pappa-karlo · 13th February 2013, 08:29 AM

Here pictures of my sword (blade 81 cm) and a seller`s - he describes the sword as the end of 17. Danish or German transitional rapier

fernando · 6th February 2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

... too long for a dagger...

Not necessarily ... i mean, there were hunting (plug) bayonets with blades reaching the length of your example and even more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valjhun

is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou....

Most certainly the second option; blades usually brake by their body but probably this one broke by the tang. Then the (new) owner shortened its point and welded such bizarre tang, transforming it into what it is now, whatever its use... even a defence side arm. This would also give logic to a weapon with such blade length.
The cross is apparently from the period, added to the blade for its new pourpose.
Pardon me if i am talking nonsense

.

M ELEY · 6th February 2013, 03:27 PM

Not nonsense at all, Fernando! I agree with you. This is a reworked blade made into a short sword. Not a naval piece, but I'd lay odds that it's Spanish colonial. They reused many old rapier and broadsword blades from earlier periods due to a shortage of materials. I've got two swords, one a bilbo-type and another, a Cuban cutlass (per Brinkerhoff's book), both with braised, reworked quillons, reworked hilts and much earlier blades. The construction on yours is primitive (no offense, I like it still!) and plain, typical of items found in New Spain or shortly after their independence (c.1780-1820's??). This is just my opinion, but it does stand to reason that anyone that would go to the trouble of refitting it was still using it. The blade is Spanish?

6th February 2013, 11:10 AM	#2
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	OK, here is it. Just a piece of wood rivetted. Awkward and modern. Too short for a sword too long for a dagger. Thank you for your replies. Fernando wonderfull, I never saw a plug bayonet with such a blade wich is very similar to mine. Attached Images

6th February 2013, 11:48 AM	#3
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Without the wooden hilt. Well, I hoped that the blade contiued into the hilt... obviously not.. is that an original tang or just a soldered piece? I would vote for the second option, I'm not sure thou. Attached Images

13th February 2013, 08:29 AM	#7
pappa-karlo Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 15	may be useful Here pictures of my sword (blade 81 cm) and a seller`s - he describes the sword as the end of 17. Danish or German transitional rapier Attached Images Last edited by pappa-karlo; 13th February 2013 at 02:45 PM.

6th February 2013, 01:28 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Oops, I see now where you listed the length of approx 23". Perhaps too long for a dirk, but would still like to see the hilt.

7th February 2013, 01:21 AM	#5
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	Thank you, friends for your help. I ruined the wooden hilt during the process and it is constructed from spruce wood and not older than 20 years as it is very very clear and fresh looking. (it looks older in the pics as it is darkly laquered). Someone found this broken sword blade and has put it toghether to his best knowledge and tried to sell it as a complete piece, I guess. I agree that the grotesque guard is also modern and it seems machine made, and poorly made, so I will remove it also I think. The question is what should I do with it? It is a nice blade overall and I think to rehilt it in some manner so I can put it in my collection. I really like the blade and composite would be better that nothing I guess. Any thoughts of where I can find some period dagger hilt with pommel or so?

10th February 2013, 09:19 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	How wide is the blade at the hilt now? Perhaps it's narrow enough to be a swordstick?

6th February 2013, 03:27 PM	#9
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Not nonsense at all, Fernando! I agree with you. This is a reworked blade made into a short sword. Not a naval piece, but I'd lay odds that it's Spanish colonial. They reused many old rapier and broadsword blades from earlier periods due to a shortage of materials. I've got two swords, one a bilbo-type and another, a Cuban cutlass (per Brinkerhoff's book), both with braised, reworked quillons, reworked hilts and much earlier blades. The construction on yours is primitive (no offense, I like it still!) and plain, typical of items found in New Spain or shortly after their independence (c.1780-1820's??). This is just my opinion, but it does stand to reason that anyone that would go to the trouble of refitting it was still using it. The blade is Spanish?