Pamor thread?

sirek · 5th February 2013, 05:51 PM

the idea was already suggested, but it did not come further than an idea

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12521

Richard Furrer · 5th February 2013, 06:45 PM

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

Bjorn · 5th February 2013, 07:45 PM

It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

A. G. Maisey · 5th February 2013, 08:52 PM

Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so.

There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche.

What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

Richard Furrer · 6th February 2013, 12:56 PM

Alan,
I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing.

Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest.

Ric

David · 6th February 2013, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not.

Ric, i don't think that you will want to get caught in the "name game" here and it will only distract you from what it seems you goals are. As Alan has already pointed out, there are a lot of good examples of pamor pattern in many available books. You will likely not only find the same name used for "similar" patterns that seem to have an obviously different approach, but completely different names for the same "exact" patterns, dependent upon many variables including, but not exclusive to the area the blade originates from, when the blade was made and what reference materials the person applying the name has read for their source info.
I am not sure what good it would serve to amass a colection of various pamors here except to create endless debate on what these various pamors should be called. You can certainly find a fairly large selection of clear photographs of different patterns either in some of these reference books or with a google search of images under the key word "keris pamor patterns".

Richard Furrer · 6th February 2013, 06:35 PM

Indeed Gentleman,
Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general.
Yet,
Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have.

As to names:
I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful.

Ric

DaveA · 24th July 2013, 05:32 AM

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

A. G. Maisey · 24th July 2013, 11:12 AM

A nice initiative Dave.

I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may.

Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron".

The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves.

Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.

Jean · 27th July 2013, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hello All,

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections.
Best Regards,

Dave A.

Hello Dave,
Congratulations for your valuable work and thanks for sharing it with us!
As Alan said, I would argue about the names given to some pamor patterns but as it is only my personal opinion and not backed by an expert, I will keep it for myself!

Best regards

milandro · 28th March 2022, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hello All,

I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful.

You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html

I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it.

Best Regards,

Dave A.

While I was researching the pamor of my krises I came across this thread and in particular this post with a reference to the David J. Atkinson site. I think it is an extremely valuable reference point and while my knowledge in general and in particular of the pamors remains very much the beginner's, I too realize how difficult it is to systemize any kind of gallery within the scope of the “ taxonomy “ of the kris.

Yet, It would be very nice to have a pamor resource here too but then I can already see that each entry would be create a discussion on its own since few pamors appear to be a clear cut case and given that there are no universally recognized sources that would be to everyone’s liking and satisfaction, there will always be the matter of how to call what in which way.

Anthony G. · 8th June 2022, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek.
I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns.
As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting.

Ric

Interesting. Try this

24th July 2013, 05:32 AM	#8
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Pamor Patterns website Hello All, I just stumbled on this thread. I have been collecting pictures of pamor for a couple of years. Some examples in my own collection, many elsewhere. On my website I am showing these pictures organized to the best of my knowledge based on information from the original sources. Richard, perhaps you and others will find this useful. You can find this section of my website at http://atkinson-swords.com/collectio...mor/index.html I certainly welcome all comments and corrections. If you would like to contribute a photo I will be pleased to add it to the gallery so everyone can find it. Best Regards, Dave A.

5th February 2013, 05:51 PM	#1
sirek Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Posts: 170	the idea was already suggested, but it did not come further than an idea http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12521

5th February 2013, 06:45 PM	#2
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Not exactly what I had in mind Sirek. I am not personally seeking a discussion of pamor per se, but a gallery of patterns. As a blackssmith I wish to reverse engineer the techniques used in creating the patterns and as such I collect photos (and keris) which I find interesting. Ric

5th February 2013, 07:45 PM	#3
Bjorn Member Join Date: Jan 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 188	It would certainly be a feast for the eyes, and a nice way to look up pamor patterns one is unfamiliar with. It might be a bit difficult to set it up in a forum environment though, owing to the huge number of patterns in existence.

5th February 2013, 08:52 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	Richard there are a lot of variations to pamor patterns, but there is a quite limited number of basic patterns, possibly only about 5 or so. There are a lot of clear pictures of pamor patterns in Haryoguritno, but you will find that just about everything that we can see in pamor patterns is reflected in damascus patterns, and when you compare the two you'll probably find that you've already seen the pattern, or at least a pattern that has been produced in a similar way, in either Figiel or Sasche. What we sometimes think of as a variation is in fact failure to achieve a desired effect.

6th February 2013, 12:56 PM	#5
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Alan, I have noticed that some names are used for two patterns which are quite different in technique, but "similar" in final appearance. I place similar in quotes as, to me at least, they are not. You may indeed be correct, but in searching just this list I have discovered much. Makes me wonder what I am missing. Perhaps if I post images of my reconstructions it would spur some interest. Ric

6th February 2013, 06:35 PM	#7
Richard Furrer Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Sturgeon Bay, Wisconsin Posts: 163	Indeed Gentleman, Pictures abound. I have most of the books...some 20 or so on Keris and many hundreds of sword/knife books in general. Yet, Some of the photos posted here are new patterns..maybe not in appearance to many of you, but to a smith they indeed are not documented in any book I have. As to names: I generally do not care until it comes time to do a search for a specific pattern type and then a name is useful. Ric

24th July 2013, 11:12 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	A nice initiative Dave. I'd like to make a couple of comments if I may. Firstly, the contrast in pamor is not necessarily created by combining iron and nickel bearing material. Very often pamor contrast is created by combining irons of different colours, for instance if a high phosphorus iron is combined with a low phosphorus iron the iron with high phosphorus content appears quite pale, something that is referred to as "white iron". The names that you have given to the various pamors you show could be argued over by students of the keris until the cows come home. I suggest that where you have given a name to a pamor that you name the source of the name, that way people can argue with the original person who gave the pamor that name, rather than with you, or amongst themselves. Again, my compliments for something that I consider to be a very valuable piece of work.